History not to be known

This just goes to show how one person’s " ‘real’ information" can be another’s highly contentious myth-making.

What you may not have realised is that the Dresden casualty figures have been the subject of enormous controversy, not least because they were one of the major issues at stake in the much-publicised David Irving libel case. This argument has paralleled that over Holocaust denial, only in this case the Holocaust deniers are the ones who have been keen to inflate the figures. They want to play up Dresden while playing down the Holocaust in order to claim equivalence between them. The figures you quote are ones which almost certainly derive, directly or indirectly, from Irving’s work. That work has now been shown to be deeply flawed. It was literally the case that Irving added a zero to one of his estimates.

The best recent estimate for the Dresden casualties is about 25,000, although some historians would push that up a bit higher to about 35,000. These, of course, are still shockingly high figures, but getting the facts right is also important. If you just accept grossly inaccurate information, all you’ve done is to swap one form of ignorance for another.

If you want the details, read Richard J. Evans’s Lying about Hitler (USA, 2001)/Telling Lies about Hitler (UK, 2002). Or you can read Evans’s expert report in full online. Section 5.2 covers the Dresden controversy.

http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/evidence/evanscontent.asp

One can also point out that, as it was the British who bombed Dresden, failure to mention it in an American testbook is probably not a case of the textbook trying to suppress American misdeeds. Moreover, the issue of whether the bombing was justified is a very complicated one - indeed, probably too complicated to be discussed adequately in a couple of sentences in a textbook.

We’ve had some interesting discussions about Dresden in the past:

WWII question - bombing of Dresden

Every time I was taught “American History” there was just enough time at the end of the year to mention WWI was fought against Germany; gas warfare was used and lots of ditches dug. Oh, and Wilson helped form the “League of Nations”, but Congress didn’t ratify it. "That’s all class, see you next year."

I learned about Dresdan from an article in True Magazine or was that in Argosy Magazine?

[ul]:stuck_out_tongue: [sup]I always thought May Day was about virgins dancing around a phallic symbol.[/sup][/ul]

As a Virginian public-school graduate, I will further scare you by stating that any of the WWII tests I took in school weren’t even that specific. More along the lines of:

The Nazis were:
a) bad
b) good

We:
a) won
b) lost

Reminds me of a Simpson’s episode where it’s the end of the school year and the kids are yelling happily as they pour out of the school doors. Suddenly, a teacher bursts from the school:

Teacher: “Wait! You haven’t learned how World War II ended!”

Everyone stops.

Teacher: “We won!”

Students: “Yay! U-S-A! U-S-A!”

–Patch

One reason that taking a narrow, peculiarly selective, view of history is objectionable is that there are people who assume the degree to which attention is given to a think is a valid indicator–in fact, possibly the only indicator–of its veracity or worth.

There are people–I’ve actually known plenty of them–who assume that recording artists, actors, etc., must be of high merit merely because their works sell well or they are lavished a good deal of attention in the popular press. I used to work with an otherwise rational-seeming man who despised the CBS AM radio affiliate in St. Louis; every morning at work he would rant about what a bunch of vapid idiots their on-air staff were, and talk about how inane they had sounded that morning as he drove into work.

He didn’t car pool. I finally asked him once why he listened to the station if he disliked it so much, and he said it was because it was the Number 1 station in the region. That is, he thought he was “supposed to” because it was popular.

Some years ago the late, lamented Spy magazine took a poll to find out how many people cared about such well-known celebrities as Madonna. The poll results suggested that most people considered her, and news about her, to be a bore. Yet she kep turning up on magazine covers, and continues to do so. I would suggest that this is partly because a good proportion of the people who regularly read publications such as People or The National Enquirer do so becuase they think they are supposed to, and they think they are supposed to believe people such as Madonna are interesting and important.

Similarly, I have been told by an acquaintance that USA Today is an “important” paper in the same sense as, say, The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal, merely because it has such a large circulation. I still remember a conversation some friends of mine and I had with a classmate back in high school in which we tried to convince him that just because The Bay City Rollers were said to be the biggest band in Great Britain at the time didn’t mean that we had to listen to them if we had a choice. It was kind of like one of those interventions the friends of an alcaholic stage.

While argumably this kind of silly behavior doesn’t matter much when all that is at issue is pop culture, there ought to be better ways of forming opinions about history and one’s place in it than which persons and events get the most space in an at times highly distorted high school American History text. Or, for that matter, which stories get the most air time.

Tonight, while searching the Net on another subject, I stumbled on a long-winded rant by a commentator suggesting that the Amistad story amounted to a hoax. His reason? That he had never heard of it before the Steven Spielberg movie. He finally concluded that it had really happened, but that it was not interesting or important. His reason? That it had not gotten much mention in history textbooks until recent times.

The possiblity that this amounted to the correcting of a mistake, or that the omission of stories such as the Amistad from curricula was a product of long-standing ignorance and prejudice, did not seem worth considering to him. Amusingly enough, he concluded with a rant about “political correctness”. Time and again it has been my observation that “political correctness” merely means a deviation from longstanding dogmatism, the suggestion being that the prejudices of the past, by definition, must be the right ones.

This past Saturday it fell to me to wait in a store for several hours while CNN Headline News played on a monitor. A story about how bean bag chairs had been found in an apartment owned by Saddam Hussein was reported far more often, and at far greater length, than the news that the American Red Cross had entered a tentative agreement with the federal government to pay fines for having intentionally violated health standards, and to have forged records besides, in its blood collection program for seventeen years. Be assured there are people who are going to believe that the Saddam story is more important, and have it make a greater impression on them, because it received more air time.

When Ferdinand Marcos was removed from power in The Philippines a woman called a phone-in show on KMOX-AM, the CBS station I mentioned before. Marcos ouster was getting the kind of headline news coverage given Saddam’s bean bag chairs. She was livid that the mass media was now suggesting that Marcos had been a corrupt tyrant. She said that could not be true. If it was, she would have heard about it before.

Any person in the U.S. with access to television, a radio, or newspapers had, of course, been capable of finding out about Marcos on their own for years. I suspect what she meant was that if it was true, it would have been given the same attention that the press has since given, for instance, to Madonna.

One wonders if the fact that Marcos was a crook, and was shored up for years by the U.S., will get much play in American History books in the future.

No, you’re thinking of democracy. Historical facts aren’t mob democracy. The study of history is built upon the critical test of ideas, and approved history is what survives criticism based on facts. Once you start mandating by law or pressure that it serve this or that political purpose, it falls to pieces as a search for truth-that-survives-criticism and becomes truth-that-survives-politics. That doesn’t become better just because there is lots of diversity. In fact, it gets worse. That’s a terrible outcome: sloppy, uncompelling, bland, and more often than not trying to teach children “right ideas” instead of “right facts.”

I mean, how many people today think that the Boston Tea Party was some sort of protest against high taxes? I’ve read several history books which manage to mangle the facts just that bad to imply it, despite that idea being utterly ridiculous and backwards.

It is certainly possible to get a crap teacher with a crap textbook in a crap school in a crap district, and learn crap-all about american history. On the other hand, it is certainly possible to get good, motivated teachers with decent but not authoritative textbooks in a good school in a conscientious district and learn quite a bit about american history.

The fact that a particular person got a crap education doesn’t mean everyone in America gets a crap education. Look if your argument is that a high school history textbook is the last book a typical student is ever going to read, and therefore must include everything of any importance, then you are going to be doomed to frustration. If that book is the last history book the kid ever reads, 5 minutes after he graduates from high school he’ll gleefully forget everything he learned in class anyway.

Reminds me of the old SNL skit, where they offer 10 minute college degrees, based on what the average person remembers from college 10 years after graduation. You can learn all that in ten minutes and skip the whole learning process in the first place if you are going to forget it all anyway.

Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris of RAF Bomber Command was the the man in charge, athough the USAAF were involved.
http://www.greenhillbooks.com/extracts/Bomber_harris.html

For a Revisionist view…
http://www.revisionism.nl/Dresden/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm

At what age do you start letting in the kids on the family’s secrets?

At what age do you tell little Johnny and Suzy that their beloved Uncle Elmer is a closet alcoholic? That their charming, vivacious Aunt June has had a half a dozen men behind Uncle Clyde’s back and that their cousin Mikey is really the mailman’s son? That their dignified, dear old grandpa got fired from the bank after he got caught embezzling and was lucky not to go to prison? When they’re eight? Twelve? Sixteen?

And there’s the question of just exactly how you discuss it with and just how far you’re going to go in presenting extenuating circumstances. Maybe Uncle Elmer is one of those poor folks who have a strong biochemical predisposition to alcoholism. Maybe Uncle Clyde was an abusive jerk who drove his wife into the arms of other men. And maybe grandpa was a patsy who got set up by a dishonest superior who got clean away with his share of the loot. It can get awfully messy when you’re trying to be fair to everybody.

We’ve got something of the same problem when it comes to school hisotry textbooks–namely, how much ugliness can the kids take at what age and still respect the family/nation/society of which they are a part? I don’t really have much of a problem with whitewashed history in grade school. You have to teach them something about history, but you can’t really expect a nine-year-old to deal with the really ugly stuff.

But sooner or later, you do have to deal with it. I’d say when they reach junior high it’s about time to start airing some of the dirty linen.

The thing is, the question is rarely a question of pure ugliness. Most often, it’s a question of people being complicated. I respect the founders a lot more now that I know they were real men and not Grecian paragons of virtue and brilliance. It has nothing to do with them being ugly, and everything to do with them being real people that I can relate to.