History's Greatest Empire

Great Debates
1

OK, this is a spin off of the The Roman War Machine thread.

The question I’m pondering is what is the greatest empire in recorded history? Now this is certainly going to be comparing apples and oranges, but I think we can make some progress.

When I say Empire, I want it to be clear that I’m not interested in the form of government. It is just a easy recognizable way of forming the question.

Some of the canidates are as follows:
[ul]
[li]Current USA[/li][li]Roman Empire around 100 B.C. - 300 A.D.[/li][li]Mongolian Empire under Ghengis & Kublai Khan[/li][li]British Empire in the 19th century[/li][li]Ottoman Empire (not sure of its peak or expanse)[/li][li]Chinese Ming Dynasty (someone may later clarify if i’m refering to the right one)[/li][li]Current Communist China[/li][li]Napoleon’s France[/li][li]Egypt under Rameses[/li][li]Greek Empire under Alexander the Great[/li][li]Mayan Empire[/li][/ul]

This list is certainly not exhaustive and I’ve included canidates with vastly different resumes for consideration. The USA I feel is unarguably creating the largest sphere of influence ever. Current China comprises the most populous Empire ever. We’ve already discussed the magnitude of Rome and Mongolia. The Chinese Ming Dynasty (if I’m wrong please correct me) held the longest reign. Rameses ruled for 76 years and could be argued to have created the highest quality of life. Greece managed to inspire the Golden Age at its peak. In The New World several of the cultures made impressive advances and long lasting societies. These are just some ideas, please add any nation you believe applies, or correct anything I’ve stated.

Now what factors should we consider? Well thats up to you, and I’m sure I’ll overlook some aspects. Some possible arguements could be for greatest land occupation, or most widely spread organized society. Greatest global expanse (ie Britian). Largest monetary accumulation. Greatest technological or artistic advance.

The only stipulation is support your claims, and defend them. For example one may choose to argue that Greece, by virtue of conquoring its enemies (while never matching the land or military might of Rome or Mongols) created the greatest society because it let thinkers like Plato and Socrates flourish and art to develop. Or maybe if you believe that the Mongols are a more militarily superior nation than the Romans, how do you answer to the fact that most of the current governments are based on the Republic, and that their focus on developing Taxes and Infrastucture reflected in todays great nations. Is the Chinese stability more impressive than the British colonization? Do you compare the nations in reference to their own time, or do you try and stand them next to one another?

Let me try and form my initial vote.

I personally think that the United States is the Greatest Empire/Nation ever developed. We have the military resources to crush any enemy we face, but choose not to use them because of the current political environment. I believe our success has allowed us to make the most rapid technological advancement even recorded. We have a culutal and economic influence beyond measure. We have a infrastructure and industrial backbone unlike the world has seen. We’ve been able to take the finest parts of histories governmental systems and apply them. For all our flaws, in a broad view we have probably the highest relative standard of living, the most tolerant and civily just culture.

While this is certainly filled with bias, and probably will want people want to point out topics common to GD, lets realize that isn’t the point. If you disagree tell me a nation better, don’t bitch about nuclear war, slavery, or Britney Spears.

2

Greatest Empire? Greatest Nation? Ambiguous OP…? Well, that’s not really fair- you knew how general it would be when you started the post, so I’ll just run through as many types as enter my head:
Military: Alexander’s Greece. Undoubtedly. Alexander himself was never, not once, defeated in battle, until he received his death wound, in Afghanistan. Persia, who controlled close to all of known Asia, entirely failed to defeat the young king. For as long as he lived, Alexander’s, and so Greece’s military might was unquestioned, as was that of his empire.

Economic: The British empire in the late 1920’s. In 1924, Hitler wrote that “The British Empire was a great world class power.” "He was wrong in one sense- it was the only world class power of its time. It did control at least 25% of the world’s territory. Control- not occupy or take tribute from, control. It ruled its possesions, and no one could, for the time, change that. Britain’s merchant fleet was as large as all the others combined, and it annually shipped more tonange than the rest of the world.

Social: Duh. Why, it’s the US! Nope. Rome?? Nope. Rome’s influence died with it as a whole. So enlighten us, what then? None, actually. Hamurabi’s Babylon. Hama-whosa-whatsit? Hamurabi, he had that code thingy, y’know, with the laws. Yes, the code of laws that provided the basis for all governments favored by the people for the next 2.5 centuries.

Cultural: (as in, most cultured) Han China. This might be the one that you meant, they ruled for at least 400 years and under their rule China was at its peak. China’s philosophy and technology thrived, as did the common peasant and his education. It was incredibly advanced and tolerant.
And I’m tired, so I hope you guys can elaborate on my list…

3

[hijack]
The oddest empire is one that was Luxembourg. For 50 years, it was larger than France. Then it was gone.
[/hijack]

4

How about Israel? Sure, it’s never been a dominant power in any one era, but consider the following:

It’s roots are deep. The Israelites have a culture that goes back over three thousand years.

It’s demonstrated great endurance. Israel has been invaded and overrun many times, but it has always managed to reform itself.

It’s had a major influence on history. Israel’s religious beliefs are currently held directly or indirectly by over three billion people.

5

Nemo, Isreal is a important religous focus to several cultures, but not nearly a consistant power, nor as long lasting as some of its competitors. Isreal doesn’t equal Judaism as you seem to be trying to say. The whole arguement is lacking.

6

Agreble, Hamarabi’s code has influenced many, but that influence is long past and never was useful during its time. How can you say that socially anything competes with the US in this time of global communication? A underlying base for a system isn’t given full credit for what it spawned. Hamarabi can’t be credited with all Republics any more than Edison can be credited with the internet.

7

I’ll argue against any incarnation of China as being history’s greatest empire, and suggest that those incarnations belong, at best, in the top ten.

China was no more an “empire” than the Holy Roman Empire after the Treaty of Westphalia was until it was finally united by Ch’in Shih Huang Ti at the end of the 3rd century BCE. (N.B.: I’m a Wade-Giles bigot. If you like pinyin, look up the equivalent romanizations.) We can reasonably style it an empire through the Former Han, the usurpation of Wang Mang, and much of the Later Han (the relationship of which to the Former Han is questionable), but by the 180s, at least, the Han power had collapsed, and the last Han “emperor” was no more than a puppet in the hands of Ts’ao Ts’ao.

After the fall of the Han in 220 CE, China was again disunited until the rise of the Sui; Sui Wen Ti reunified China in 589. His realm was inherited by the T’ang in 618, which reigned until 907, although it can again be argued that much of the north was outside of its actual (as opposed to nominal) grasp after the An Lu-shan rebellion of 755-757. After the fall of the T’ang, northern China remained in the hands of the Tatar/Tungusic Liao and Chin dynasties, and southern China in the weak hands of the Sung, until reunified under the Yuan (Mongol) dynasty in 1279. The Ming seized control of China from the Yuan in 1368, and lost it to the Ch’ing (Manchus) in 1644, when the last acknowledged Ming emperor hanged himself (to escape bandits, not the Ch’ing).

China has actually been united about half of the time since Han Kao Tsu took the throne in 202 BCE. Its cultural achievements have been impressive, although many of them (e.g., abacus) have actually trickled into China via the Silk Road. It should also been remembered that its most impressive military and cultural achievements have generally been made under foreign dynasties who used China and Chinese proper as a cash cow and source of cannon fodder (the Sui and T’ang founders were largely Turkish; the explorations sent by Ming Yung Lo were a hated aberration, and can be partly explained by the fact that he had usurped his nephew, who was rumored to have escaped to Southeast Asia).

8

Omni, in the OP you specifically wrote we should go beyond mere political control and look at cultural influence. And I realize that Israel does not equal Judaism; however Judaism is one of the central facets of Israelite culture. If Greece can be associated with democracy and the United States can be associated with capitalism, then surely Israel can be associated with Judeo-Christian-Islamic faith.

9

Nemo, my point was that it is a center of Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs, NOT of Jewish faith. The devisiveness of those 3 faiths is what in itself ruins any arguement that Israel is a substantial World power in history. Even any claims of the length of the Israelites influence is basesless since they haven’t held land for long stretches of time. But you are right that I intended them to be a canadate. Every nation is really, as long as you can support it. You, in my eyes, haven’t suported it.

10

No, he can’t, but then technically neither can he be credited with the light bulb, or the power system of the US, so I wouldn’t jump to conclusions. However, the creation of the internet can be traced back to Edison, as can most of the principals of modern government. Nope, not gonna back that one up more, I’d only hurt my argument more than this statement does

11

You left out the Evil Galactic Empire from the Star Wars movies. My personal favorite … and it qualifies as history because it existed “a long time ago” (just in a galaxy far, far away, though).

12

I was wagering on who’d bring that up…

And you wonder why I love you people.

13

I would have to say the Soviets had the most powerfull empirer in all of history. There nuke forse has never been mached even by the USA. They were the only empier in history that has spent its resorses on science (ie Gagarin) with no threat pushing it on (the us only went to the moon because they were trying to also). At its hight the soviets could have destored the usa in one blow or invaded all of europe in a week.

14

Threll, I doubt the Soviets were that powerful. I think various US politicians wanted to make a bogeyman, so they could get themselves influence (and take commissions on the vast sums of money spent on the arms race).

If you look how the Soviets coped with Afghanistan, or even Russia with Chechneya, I think your estimate of a week to invade Europe is hopelessly optimistic.

15

Can I be the first to dismiss Threll from our discussion?

16

glee: We didn’t do too well in vietnam. Politicians might have tried to make a monster out of the ussr, but they really did have a bigger navy and army and more nukes.

Omniscient: If you don’t agree with me, that is fine.If you feel that what I’m saying is incorrect, then present your argument. But don’t exclude me for my opinions. I’m not a troll. Maybe it might be a good idea if we leave the 20th century out of the discussion.

17

Threll,

Yes, I think Vietnam and Afghanistan show that it’s harder to conquer a resentful nation now that guerilla tactics and weapons are more available.

You can (sickeningly) bomb a country into the Stone Age, but not take and hold it without massive difficulty.

(I wonder if Omniscient had a problem with your misspellings + rash assertions - your last post was much superior1)

18

Probably the United States. Only the greatest empire in the world could be #10 on the human development index and then get the top nine intentionally to try and emulate it.

19

I’ve been looking online all morning for a couple of articles which I remember address threll’s comments about the Soviet nuclear threat and armed forces. They detailed some speeched by Sergei Kruschev, son of Nikita Kruschev, from last year which basically confirmed that the U.S. was constantly overestimating the size of Soviet ground and naval forces, and especially their nuclear arsenal; and that Nikita had no problem with telling all sorts of lies to get the U.S. to believe that the Soviets were much more of a threat than they really were. If anyone else knows where I can find them, I’d be ever so grateful.

20

Yes there was the bomber gap of the early 60’s but with the nukes on air planes. By the later part of the 60 they had replaced there airborn nukes with icbms.There navy did out number us 3 to 1.
Other then the the USA and USSR I would have to say the most powerfull empirer would have been Rome.They had a good army and goverment.