"Hitler was half Jewish and half German"

Ah well, you’re wrong.
Strong S/W/K states that language, and only languge informs thought.
Weak S/W/K states that language can in some circumstances inform thought, and that thought in turn can inform language. So even under weak S/W/K, you can still have the construction of reality via language.

Bullshit.
Academia simply is an organized and systemic attempt at gaining knowledge. Why on earth should we not integrate this into ‘real life’?

In any case where you are not attempting to be deceptive, yes, the purpose is to be as accurate as possible because the purpose is to convey information.

Capitulate, necessarily? No.
But if someone had training in cog sci they could at least discuss the issues I raise rather than attempting to say they don’t exist. Someone with similar or greater training in the field would quite possibly have a greater understanding of the data and research. My point is not that I am an authority, but that I have knowledge of the subject matter. It isn’t an ‘appeal to authority’, it’s an appeal to facts.

No, I can not!
If I was to give you a link, it would require that you be logged into the University of Texas server as a student. Unless you are, you can’t open the link. That’s because UT pays a fee in order to offer its students access to all the peer reviewed journals out there, so every time I log on through my student account I am utilizing the service that UT has paid for. You, not being a student, do not get this service. So, no, I can’t link you to it. And emailing it, as I’ve already stated, is against copywrite law, so I’m not about to do that either.

And, yes, as I’ve said several times, I’m looking for more cites on the 'net. It should be rather unsurprising that journals which require you to pay to subscribe/read them would not make their material available on the web for free.

Um… no.
I’m saying that’s the paradigm the statement supports, even if you are using it to mean something else. If you mean you find some-but-not-all Chinese girls hot, you should say so. Saying ‘Chinese girls are hot’ includes the tacit word ‘all’. Otherwise, speaking of "chinese girls’ as an entity is fallacious.

~sigh~
First, that’s a strawman. Fucking cut it out!
Of course someone could indeed mean that they liked all Chinese girls, and I’ve never said otherwise.
Nor have I said these ambiguities wouldn’t exist, simply that our language should code reality in such a way that these ambiguities are made clear in individual instances.

If you can’t debate against my actual argument please drop out of the thread, I’m sick to death of people ascribing strawmen to me because the strawmen are easier to argue against.

Nope, fully correct. You are taking one factor and making it a ‘group’. The only valid group is humanity (And even that is debatable), and everything else from there is cherrypicking. There are people-who-happen-to-be-male. ‘Maleness’, however, means nothing.

It should be obvious that even in your example, the sensation of pain, there is a continium and some women can feel pain in a similar if not identical manner to some men. Are they then out of the ‘group’ of women?

To the degree that we can categorize individuals based on similarities we can create ‘groups’, but they do not exist in reality. You can never, ever, ever, point me to a group. You can point me to individuals who you wish to place in the group, but not a group. (Unless a bunch of people are standing together and you point to 'em)

Moreoever, by focusing on similarities and ignoring the wealth of differences, all we’re doing is stating that individuals have similar characteristics. “Group” thinking allows us to ascribe more than just these characteristics to groups, faccaciously. Groups are not fungible.

To elaborte, if “women” is truly a valid group, then we can talk about universal characteristics. Groups have identity. But you will find that there is difference and divergence between individual women.

Specifically in regards to the perception of pain in women, we see that it is primarily estrogen levels which affect this.

Now, let’s say we have a woman who, for whatever reason, is lacking in estrogen. By a definition that “Being in the ‘group’, women, you will have a lesser reaction to pain.”… well, by that definition, she’s not a woman.

There are certain individuals who can be shown to have similar traits via sound science. But beyond that we can’t really say anything.

My language is as precise as language allows. It is a well known phenomona that the deeper you get into linguistics, the less clear it becomes. There is a threshold past which “speaking about speaking” becomes too complicated.

Nope, I’m entirely correct.
There are individuals who we group together based on common features, but there is no objective existance for any group. Groups are aggregates of individuals, they do not exist without those individuals. You can never point to a group without mentioning the people in it, and once you do that, you must take into account that they are different and divergant, and thus, you can’t speak to the fundamental nature of any group.

I hate to be on Finn’s side for this argument because to a certain degree I disagree with him, but he most definitely did not say he was offended. If your lack of understanding of linguistics and anthropology are going to be a hangup for this discussion, I suggest it’s best that you leave the conversation.

Finn is using a scientific hypothesis(Sapir-Whorf) that says that the language we use determines our thought processes. WHile I think S-W has an application, I do not in this case, and while I disagree with the use of S-W for this discussion, he has not said he’s offended at all.

I think you misunderstood. I didn’t imply that being Jewish indicates one’s ethnicity all the time. So I never said that the whole of the Jewish world is ethnic and therefore there is no fallacy to be had.

As I have pointed out and many other as well, your point has merit, but the detail you’re worrying about is so small to not have an effect on people’s thoughts about Jews. I just don’t think it’s relevant in this instance. You may feel free to disagree.

Please don’t condescend to me, Finn. I would think you know enough about me by now to know that when I say something, I mean it.

So you would rather discard the notion of you as a Jew having undeniable characteristics that set you apart from others? I’m proud of my ethnicity, proud of my culture, proud of my family and I refuse to ignore facts just because “they” might use it against me in the future as they have done in the past. I just can’t divorce the part of me-inside and out-that makes me Jewish. It is stronger than the influences of my family’s country of origin and it makes me who I am.

Unfortunately, a change in linguistics will not save us from anti-semitism.

Hey, I’m not knocking it, I’m just saying is all…

Sam

I cannot believe a self-described academic would believe something so patently stupid. By this logic, it would be “simply wrong” to address a guy as “Mr.” and his female companion as “Ms”.

It would be “simply wrong” to treat a human different from a gorilla.

It would be “simply wrong” to make generalizations about Americans, Cambodians, or Argentinians.

It would be “simply wrong” to differentiate children from the elderly.

This “groups aren’t real” bullshit has become the hallmark of the People-Who-Think-Too-Much-at-the-Expense-Of-Common-Sense. I say this as someone who both loves to think and is a product of the academe.

Now, perhaps I am reading your words too literally. Perhaps when you said “groups” you meant only ones delineated around ethnicity or race. (One can argue that there is no biological basis for racial/ethnic groups, but even this argument does not preclude the “realness” of groups in a sociological context.) If you only meant certain types of groups when you were generalizing about groups, then your own language was “inaccurate” and thus in need of correction, according to what you’ve said in this thread.

What is “real” and not “real” is not your area of expertise, no matter how many big words you can use (if I see “fungible”* again, I think my head will explode). If society says that a certain group exists, that’s all the “real” that matters. Whether or not that group is cohesive enough to form sound generalizations is another question all together. You seem to be confounding the two things.

If I say “Jewish girls later become Jewish women”, have I committed a sin? Or does the sin only come when the statement is subjective?

*As a self-described “expert” (which you have done by boasting defensively about how much you know), it would serve you well not to use jargon or “ivory tower” million-dollar words as frequently as you do. I think you have been called haughty not just because of your braggadocious postings, but also because of your posting style. Earlier this week, I overheard my well-respected, well-published boss tell another person that the most impressive scientists successfully convey complex information using words that their grandmothers can understand. People who use words like “fungible” over and over and over again are trying way too damn hard.

I can honestly say that I’m not condescending to you GaWd, but the point I’m debating, at least in my understanding, does have great impact on everybody’s reality. So there is a difference between someone feeling that it doesn’t impact, and it actually having an impact.

Which is to say, even if you, in your own thinking habits, do not confuse levels of abstraction, other people confusing them will still affect your reality.

Yes.
I think that would make other pogroms or another shoah impossible.

I disagree. If nobody could speak of “The Jews” as a group, nobody could attempt to ascribe value to us, as a group.

Again, I respect you and I’m not being condescending at all. But I do believe that if students were trained in proper semantic habits, nobody could speak to the ultimate character of any ‘group’. If that was the case, it would be impossible to rally public support for attacking “The Jews”

Oh boy! And entire post of strawmen!
Whee!!!

No, you’d address people as they like to be addressed. Individuality, not comformity.
What would be wrong, is that if you addressed someone as ‘Mr.’ that it would have any bearing on his character, at all.

No, that’s just stupid.

Ding ding ding!
It would indeed be wrong to make generalizations about “Americans”, if you’re treating “Americans” as a fungible group. The only correct path would be to statistically state what percentage of people who happens to be Americans do/feel/think what.

Also stupid. It would not be wrong to describe metabolic processes in individuals, it would be to treat them as fungible groups. Some ‘elderly’ people age very gracefully, etc…

Ahhhh, is that a hidden ad hominem in there?

Prove to me that any group is real, and not just a linguistic fiction, first.

No I mean that groups have no objective existance, at all.
They’re in our heads, not in reality.

Yes, what is real and how it’s coded in language is exactly my area of expertise. And if you don’t like the word fungible, don’t deal with a discussion on groups. ~shrugs~

The “If 100 frenchmen say it’s true” fallacy.
It matters in the sense that it can motivate emotional energy, but that doesn’t make it real.

The thought of a unicorn is a real thought.
Unicorns are not.

Conflating?
If a group is not fungible, then all you’re saying is that there are indiviuals with certain traits. But the objective level of reality is still indiviuality.

A… sin?
It wouldn’t be a necessarily accurate represeantion of reality, no.
And it wouldn’t be accurate if you assume a fundemantel fungible nature to any of the terms “jewish” “girl” or “woman”

First, fuck you.
I’ve gone out of my way to deny that I was an expert. Claiming more knolwedge than someone who hasn’t been educated in the field isn’t being an expert.

Second, no, I use the words which work. If you want to call it jargon or million-dollar words, fine. I’ll continue to use language to describe reality as I’m best able.

Is it bragging for a piano player to point out the truth that he knows more about how to play a piano than those who can’t play piano?

I’m not Hawking, Gould, or Sagan. I will explain as best I’m able. And if not using ‘simple words my grandmother could understand’ makes me haughty… ah well. Anybody who doesn’t dumb down their language is haughty then, and I’ll be in fine company.

And, before I leave the house for the night, If you don’t undersand why the word fungible is absolutely necessary in any discussion of ‘groups’, ah well.

If we were to eliminate all racial, religious, nationality, ethnicity, and gender labels from our language (I don’t know what magic potion would do this, but let’s suppose it happened), what would keep us from grouping people based on appearance? Or age? Or the way people speak?

Are you saying that if we abolished the word “fat” from our lexicon, we would cease to differentiate between the skinny and the obese? Would beautiful and ugly people become homogenous as well?

Is language required to group people by pigmentation or facial structure? Which comes first: an observation or the name for the observation?

My second bunch of questions:

Are groups inherently bad? Are humans inherently “groupist”? If nothing can be inherently anything (you intimated that you held this belief earlier) then isn’t the answer to both of these questions “No”? And if this is the case, why should we remove “group identifiers” from our language?

Lastly:

Is fear of future oppression the impetus behind ridding the language of group identifiers, or is it a quest for “accurate” language? Who decides what’s “accurate?” If no groups are real, then that means “apples”, “furniture”, “continents”, “dogs”, “planets”, and “buildings” do not exist in a real sense, right? Why not? How is calling a group of people who descend genetically or spiritually from Abraham “Jews” any more wrong than calling a group of live-bearing hairy animals “mammals”? How can we use language at all if groups are forbidden?

I’m not really arguing with you as much as trying to get you to explain yourself better. What you are saying sounds so bizarre to me but I may be misunderstanding you.

Homogenization of everyone and the removal of groups won’t eliminate racism, bigotry, anti-semitism, or anything you wish to do in an ideal world, Finn. I wish it would.

Sam

Alrighty dokey all, I feel that I’m saying the same things over and over, and not advancing anything new. I can accept that my failure to communicate is largely my fault, but I’m not going to keep this up, it’s frutrating as hell. And a hijack of this thread.

To everybody who has debated with me, I appreciate your counterpoints and discussion. I will leave this thread now, thanks for a good debate. (besides, my friends are now wondering why I’m on the comp rather than drinking beers. I raise my glass of Warsteiner to y’all, have an excellent weekend!)

Namaste.

So saying “Americans live in the United States of America” is wrong? I have to say “Ninety-five percent of Americans live in the United States of America” in order for reasonable people to understand what I’m communicating?

It is also wrong for me to say “Cambodians live in Asia” or “Argentinians live in South America”? I have to add the qualifier “most” to these statements for them to be convey the “correct” meaning?

If most people are able to decipher the meaning of a generalization like “Americans eat a lot of fatty foods”, then why should we worry ourselves with attaching a statistic or qualifier to it?

I agree that generalizations like “Girls like lollipops” are erroneous, but certainly this is different from “Girls have vaginas”. And yet, because they are both generalizations of “unreal” groups, they are both wrong statements. But why should reasonable people concern ourselves with such trifle errors of speech? Are we striving for perfection or simply to be understood?

I hope you do end up at least reading this post. I’m not really interested in getting involved in this fight, but I do have access through my school account to all the journals one could imagine. If you just give me the references, I’d be interested in looking them up for myself.

If refuting your point that “people should always be in accurate in their conversation as possible” by using your own post makes me an obnoxious bitch, I’ll gladly take that title. It stings to be proven a hypocrite, doesn’t it?

Yes, and it’s perfectly acceptable to convey information without complete and stringent accuracy in a conversational setting.

I want to convey, “I am attracted to men with traditionally Semitic features, ex. dark hair and eyes, long noses, and names like ‘Elijah’.”

I say, “Jewish guys are hot.”

Everyone understands what I mean. Christ, if we all undertook to be completely accurate in conversation, cocktail parties would drag on for days and it would take a full minute to greet a friend on the street!

Damn! Didn’t read all the way down!

waves good-bye to FinnAgain

Dammit, I had to go to work. Now I come back and find that Finn’s left the building.

I was going to explain how I’ve studied chemistry. And Jews are made out of chemical elements. So obviously I know about Jews than the rest of you because I know more about chemistry.

Actually, I was thinking of commenting on Finn’s earlier denial of “expert” status while continuing to claim he knew more about the subject than we do. I was going to point out it was true he never said he was smarter than everybody else; he might just be implying that the rest of us are dumb. But I guess the irony would have been lost amidst his later postings that we are in fact “assholes”, “dicks”, “dumb bitchs”, and “morons” (which one was I again?). I, for one, always enjoy watching a professional use the beauty of the English language to its fullest.

It’s 15 degrees Fahrenheit where I’m at. Surprising weather for a meltdown.

monstro, since FinnAgain is not coming back, I ask you to look at a couple of things. One is your statement about Americans. You immediately picked up on the idea that there were exceptions to the rule about Americans living in the United States. So Americans have to be judged on an individual basis rather than as a group.

The second thing is FinnAgain’s statement. Please reread with an open mind:

That last sentence is the zinger:

You can’t speak to the fundamental nature of any group.

That is one of the basics in the study of linguistics – or at least it was forty years ago. Language – as it relates to our brains and our psychological makeup – is a more complicated subject than most of us ever dream.

FinnAgain, I make mistakes in spelling, punctuation and construction all the time, but you have this one coming: Use the possessive form of the pronoun before the gerund: “There’s a difference between your not seeing…”

Little Nemo, I meant to remind Finn that you can’t fight the “ignorance” of people that you consider to be bitches, assholesetc. Humiliation is not a good teaching strategy.

What was this thread about? I think I got distracted.

The thread was about whether or not one of Hitler’s grandparents was Jewish. So the topic was about specific individuals and never about groups. You’d think a highly trained person would have noticed that, but go figure.

Oh, yes. Now I remember. Teachers, like anyone else, can be misinformed. But she should make it a point to let her students know that she was mistaken and give them the right information. She’s a bum teacher if she doesn’t do that.

ethanwinfield, is the 8th grade part of that same school? I ask because The Diary of Anne Frank is sometimes in 10th grade textbooks.

Teachers? Misinformed? Apparently you didn’t know that teachers have years of training. They study education in college and have diplomas. Obviously it would be fallacious to claim they could be misinformed with credentials like that, so I am forced to conclude you’re being fungible.

Yes, you’re doing a marvelous job of fighting ignorance. I think you have proven your intellectual superiority. Good job. :rolleyes: