From 1926 until 1936, the Hitler youth (HJ, Hitlerjugend) was voluntary organization dedicated to ‘guiding the youth by the youth’.
After outlawing other youth organizations in 1933 participation in the HJ became mandatory in 1936 for all boys ranging from 14 to 17. Other derivatives were used for younger boys and a special ‘girl scout’ version as well (Jungmaedel).
Activities at the beginning were limited to sports, outdoor activities, comradery and some introduction to propaganda. Later, activities like paramilitary activities, target shooting, ‘non-military’ help during the war such as collection of clothing and clean up activities were added.
Fairly early, the young participants recognized the authority that their leaders had in parallel to family and parents. But only in the final years were the HJ pulled in to report on suspicious activities by neighbors and family.
There is a lot to be said about the development of the HJ throughout the years and I am just starting to read up on this matter again.
My first impression is, that the similarities of the early HJ and the boy scouts outnumber the disparities. Adding potential (I’m in theory land now) activities such as TIPS would increase IMHO the similarities even more.
I knew about the HJ existence but i didn’t know they were involved in spying activities. It reminds me of the book 1984 by George Orwell.
The difference is that Hitler was evil and Bush is a saint.
But seriously, although i can conceive that in principle, a wide network of informants hunting for terrorist activities might seem attracting, it’s efficiency might not justify the potential harms it can inflict on the american society as whole. Human nature is wicked and i foresee that false testimonies, growing suspicion and discrimination will be the TIPS legacy.
I’m not sure where the Boy Scouts come in with regards to your post. You don’t bring them up until the last paragraph, so perhaps you could expand on how they relate to the Hitler Youth?
I am an Eagle Scout and I sure don’t remember any proto-Nazi parallels. What sort of propaganda are you suggesting the Boy Scouts go through that parallels the Hitler Youth? Love and respect for God, country, and community? Well, I guess both organizations have that, but I think your connection is tenuous at best.
It’s true that a Scout Troop is organzied along patrols and squads, but it is certainly not “paramilitary.” Maybe I missed the day they isssued guns and ordinance.
And I’d be willing to be that just about every country that has gone to was (U.S. included), has relied on the type of non-military help you seem to find so (suspicious? interesting?) Why try to relate it strictly to the Hitler Youth?
Taking your approach, you could equate a number of organized activities with the Hitler Youth, including high school football. (Sports? Camraderie? Teamwork? Exercise? Disclipline? Trust in the authority figure?)
Interestingly, according to this site, the Boy Scouts were kicked out of Germany in 1933 to make way for the Hitler Youth. It was in fact modelled in part on the Boy Scouts, but had ahem somewhat different ideals.
Having said that, the Scouting movement’s 1904 founder, Lord Baden-Powell, fought in the Boer War, in which the first concentration camps were set up by the British, but I think I’m stretching it a bit here…
I’ve got to disagree with you Hinten. The Boy Scouts and TIPS are not at all related. This is not a youth program meant to get kids to rat out their commie parents or Jewish teachers.
Also, it sounds like TIPS will be focused on workplaces where terrorism is a distinct posibility (nuclear power plants, airports, and that sort of thing). While I do see some Orwellian parallels, I’ll reserve judgment until it’s clear exactly what the program is going to be.
The OP is stretching it just a little bit beyond the reasonable. The Scout Movement might have had a shady moment in it’s very founding days as jjimm pointed out, but beyond that the parallel is moot on a very, very basic premise of the Scout Movement, namely Internationalism.
Hitler Jugend was a strictly Nationalist organization as everything else under the NSDAP regime. The Scouts were disbanded because of their Internationalist character. If there was one thing the Nazis abhorred more than anything, then it was Internationalism - I know what a few of you might be thinking now – Sparc’s gone gaga, what about the Jews?
Well see they were the very basis of Internationalism according to Nazi doctrine. By that token the Scouts were indeed one of the evils to be destroyed, that they copied some structures and the general idea of outdoorsy lifestyle is quite typical, many of the Nazi ideals were stolen straight off from what they wanted to destroy and then warped into some of the sickest shit you can imagine.
Since the Scouts retain their international character and dedication to Internationalism there would have to be a rebellion of sorts in the American Boy Scouts before they could even get close to the HJ.
My reading from the ‘advertised’ activities and mindset there is still very little difference between the original Hitlerjugend and the current boy scouts. There is probably a very distinct difference in implementation. The biggest difference is that eventually participation in the HJ was made mandatory and all other youth organizations outlawed. We are certainly not close to that with the boy scouts.
Give me one example of activities that was an integral part of the HJ that is not part of the boy scout organization.
As I said in my original post, the relation between the boy scouts and the TIPS program is purely hypothetical and does currently not exist. The theoretical combination of the two is what I find interesting. You tell me if it is a stretch to enlist postman into TIPS or enlisting boy scouts into TIPS?
BTW, I was under the impression that in Europe the boy scout equivalent is the Pathfinders (Pfadfinder). Furthermore, I remember that group to have its roots in a christin movement, specifically catholic. Can anyone confirm?
For example: http://members.aol.com/vinir/pfinter/
divemaster - As a matter of fact, I am very wary of any club membership exactly because of those issues. More so in the old world than in the US.
No, the European equivalent to the Boy Scouts is the Boy Scouts. It was originally English, not American. There are Scouts for just about every country.
Exactly which activities of the Hitler Youth were integral? Let’s get that nailed down before we start making comparisons.
Here’s some points that made HJ unique:
[ol][li]HJ celebrated ‘German-ness’. [/li][li]HJ studied the fundamental principles of Nazism; Mein Kampf was obligatory reading. [/li][li]HJ celebrated ideals that were directly militaristic. [/li][li]HJ excluded all ‘races’ except the German ‘race’. [/li][li]HJ existed within a political and informational vacuum. [/li][li]HJ was part of a political party and took active part in rallies, marches and other political events. [/li][li]HJ transcended free time and was an all encompassing way of life; they wore their uniforms to school for instance. [/li][li]HJ encouraged sameness and the active bullying and oppression of other kids that weren’t walking directly down the party line. [/li][li]HJ existed in Germany in the 1930s under the most oppressive and destructive Fascist regime that has ever risen to power.[/ol]Do you need more? There is more if you need it.[/li]
The only movement that even comes close to HJ is the Communist Pioneer movement, but even they are boy scouts in comparison.
As a former Boy Scout, I’d have to say I don’t get the comparison with the Hitlerjugend at all. The Boy Scouts are independent of any political party and I detected no overt agenda in favor of one party or another in the organization.
Actually, something rather similar exists as an adjunct to Jena-Marie Le Pen’s far-right Front Nationale. For those who read French, here is the web site of the Front Nationale de la Jeunesse.
Yeah El_Kabong, but note that HJ had a state machinery behind it, which FNJ don’t (despite some pretty strange and scary election results in France of recent). Hence FNJ doesn’t quite have the freedom to be as whacky as they would want, which HJ did.
If it hasn’t become clear I too find the comparisson the OP is trying to make somewhat strange.
My Socialist grandfather was more conservative than the Scouts, but I do fear that you are right Neurotik.
One has to admit though, that those dark windows that Scout moms have started sporting on their SUVs to hide all the surveillance equipment is a dead give away.
Yes. And we all know that SUV = evil capitalist oppressor.
You know, I really didn’t like you when you first started posting, Sparc. But since we’ve started agreeing on more stuff, I’ve realized you aren’t such a bad guy, after all.
