Hockey Question:"Untouchable Players"

Factual Questions
1

This question kind of relates to my other thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=53132

I have heard that there is a special “code” amongst hockey players that it is taboo to either start a fight with or cheap shot in any way certain stars. The only three names that I know of as hockey’s “untouchables” are the now retired Wayne Gretzky, the soon to be retired Mark Messier and just unretired Mario Lemieux. Is this true or part of hockey lore?

I cannot remember the last time any of hockey’s bullies have started fights or cheap shotted any of these three stars (and when Gordie Howe returned to the NHL in 1979 at 50 years old, I can’t quite remember anyone plowing into him either). How does one attain this status? What would happen to me if I ever did start a fight with Lemieux or Messier? Has this code ever been publicly acknowledged by any hockey player? Is it because these players are “ambassadors” of the sport that transcend the game? Or is it that business at the box office would be ruined without them? Or is it that they are not “fighters” or instigators, just panty waist pretty boys that score goals?

2

“Untouchable” status is usually conferred upon those who are considered “Franchise” players–players upon whom a team is developed around and without whom the franchise would be severely weakened competitively.

They are valuable assests who are to be respected and protected. Take a cheap shot at Gretsky and would be sure to feel the wrath of the team’s “Enforcers”–those players drafted to do the dirty-work on the ice and whose job it is to make sure no one touches the “Franchise” players.

It’s just one of those wierd unwritten codes that have developed over the years in professional sports. Others would be…

Baseball: You don’t bunt from the 7th inning on during a no-hitter… you don’t steal a base when your team’s leading by 6 or more

Basketball: “Veteran” status allows you to get away with fouls a rookie couldn’t

3

It was considered bad form to “go after” some special players. However, while Gretzky was considered untouchable, he got flattened two time that I can remember. Once was a young nobody defenceman for the Leafs who caught Gretz with his head down. The second that I can remember was a cheap shot from behind by Gary Suter. He usually didn’t get hit because he kept moving the whole time he was on the ice. People tried to hit him, they just couldn’t.

The same goes for Mario. It is tough to hit him with a clean open ice hit. But remember, when he did retire he said it was because all the hooking and holding that he, and other stars experience.

Messier is only a recent addition to the “untouchable” club, and that is because of his advanced age. Messier was a dirty player for much of his career. His elbows were at least as good as Gordie Howes, and he was suspended at least once for stick swinging (if he had done it last year, he would have gotten at least 20 games).

4

Another baseball one I read about in an interview with an MLB first baseman is this: If the other team’s first baseman is on first base, you don’t pick him off.

5

You’ll find, for the most part, these are the near dead breed of finesse players in hockey. They play the game w/o near as much physical contact as the rest of the league (and were generally smaller). So, if you hit them, someone would clean your clock.

6

Paul Kariya of the Ducks gets hit a lot, so I guess he hasn’t reached “untouchable” status yet. In the past couple of years, he’s decided to fight back.

7

Gretzky was an “untouchable” and so was Lemieux. I don’t know about Mess. I guess you can consider him an untouchable in the sense that no one else is likely to start a fight with him, but Mess is a leader and does drop his gloves when he needs to, and is quite capable of doing some damage (I don’t know if the fact that he probably catches opponents off guard has anything to do with this), I think he does pretty well.

Howe was able to defend himself. A “Gordie Howe hattrick” is a goal, an assist, and a fighting major. Gordie was still one mean son of a bitch when he came back. The other night Bill Clement (ESPN announcer) was doing Lemieux’s comeback game and said that Gordie smashed him into the boards after Gordie had made his comeback. I also think I heard Gretzky telling a story about playing against Howe and Gretz made some fancy move and then back up ice he got slashed and it was Howe and Howe said something about how he didn’t want Gretz to ever show him up again, he was serious. One attains this status by scoring one hell of a lot, and pretty much being irreplaceable, mainly the reasons that would cause someone to go after them in the first place.

As I stated above, if you started anything with Mess, you’d hear from Mess (I believe that Adam Graves and Jeff Beukeboom have both “defended” Mess before). I believe that Pittsburgh is putting defenseman Darius Kasparaitus out with Mario as a bodyguard type. Matthew Barnaby also plays for the Pens, he’s a fighter, maybe not a heavyweight, but he isn’t shy about dropping 'em. He is currently serving a suspension for kind of “attacking” a fan. Gretzky has had two personal on ice bodyguards that I’ve known of. Dave Semenko and the infamous Marty McSorley that pretty much was able to stay in the league because of Gretzky.

Gretzky isn’t a huge fan of fighting, but in an interview I heard him say something kind of about how certain guys have fighting as a job.

I believe Gretzky has been in three fights in his career, the only opponent I can remember is Neal Broten (80 US Hockey team member). The longest anyone has played w/o a fighting major is Brett Hull (unless he’s received one recently), who has never received a fighting major in his career. So Mario must have been charged with fighting or something, maybe someone else knows that one.

A couple “untouchables” I can think of are: Jaromir Jagr, Paul Kariya (he would be if there was an enforcer on the team, but there isn’t really so he gets a lot of cheap shots), with pretty much anyone else that is pretty high up on the scoring charts you can expect to have a goon after you if you mess with them.

8

It sounds as if what all of you are saying so far is that the only reason these three players are untouchable is because the goons that skate with them will basically rip you a new asshole if you fuck with them, not something out of respect.

I do disagree with Jagr being an untouchable, since he is a 6-5 and well over 200 lbs and is known to handle his own out on the ice, though yes, not in too many fights.

9

Great One had his own method of dealing with all the folks who wanted to use his head for a puck. I don’t think any player has ever skated away from as many cheap shots as he did. He was quite adept at turning a power play into a goal. He would have had to skate away from more cheap shots but he was very adept at avoiding them as has been mentioned earlier.

I saw an interview once with some bruiser, where he talked in depth about his role on the ice. It was fairly complex, as most situations called for the bruisers of both teams to fight it out instead of the highly skilled (hockey skill, not fighting skill) ones risking injury. Keep in mind this is suitable for many circumstances, but not for all. In the big picture, yes most thugs act as an ever present reason not to try and knock the star through the plexiglass.

Of course, nothing compares to those occasions when everybody gets into it. Nothing like watching 2 goalies take off padding until they are in suitable fighting condition.

Alantus

10

I think Gretzky was untouchable not because they didn’t want to hit him but because they couldn’t hit him because he was so fast on the ice.

Howe was untouchable after his comeback out of sheer fear. If you did kick his butt then all you did was beat up a 50 year old guy. If you didn’t, then you not only got your ass kicked by a real sonafabitch on the ice, but a 50 year old one to boot.

I saw him last year at the closing of Tiger Stadium, I was 6 feet from him. He looked like he could beat the crap out of me today. His hands are the size of a catchers mitt.

11

Maybe Jagr isn’t completely “untouchable” in the sense that he does get touched. When he does get touched, though, look out, everyone else on the team has something to say about it. Case in point, the game against Florida where Peter Worrell of the Panthers stuck a paw in Jags face and the whole Pittsburgh team went crazy on a very big Peter Worrell. So crazy, in fact that the Pittsburgh goalie, Garth Snow, came to center ice to take a shot at Worrell. If you mess with Jagr, someone is coming after you. Jagr won’t drop the gloves either. You can usually tell that a guy isn’t willing to fight because he’s wearing a visor. I belive it’s illegal for someone wearing a visor to start a fight, they’re allowed to defend themselves in a fight, but not start one.

I think that the instigator rule has really made the “untouchables” a little more of a target. As I’ve said before I’m a supporter of fighting, the problem the instigator rule has started is some no-name looks to make a name for himself by knocking out a star. When this happens the enforcer/toughguy/policeman has to be a little more wary about just straight up jumping the culprit, because if the guy turtles the enforcer gets an instigator penalty, and I think a suspension comes with it. So nowadays it will just be the two enforcers duking it out, and the person that should get the whoopin’ gets a pass. I’m sure he gets a little extra shove or slash here and there, but he doesn’t get his nose busted like he deserves.

12

Gretzky wasn’t really that fast a skater, though he was pretty elusive. He learned to “spin” off of checks, which made him a harder target to hit solidly.

13

It should be noted for those posting here who might not be ardent hockey fans that “untouchable players” aren’t literally untouchable. Some physical contact is made with them throughout the course of the game.

It’s just that, unlike with the bulk of players, a rough style of player will generally pull up and “soft-check” them, just kind of hold them up and get in their way, rather than really nail them.

Gretzky, before he earned his reputation as The Great One, would have certainly been run by rough players, if they could have caught him.

Adam Yax said:

If I recall correctly, this nobody who really whacked Gretzky never played another game in the NHL, so severe was the unspoken taboo he had broken. Urban Legend? I seem to recall hearing it on “Hockey Night in Canada,” back before my idiot cable company removed that option for me.

A lot of these unwritten sports rules seem to be going by the wayside. Not stealing a base when your team is ahead by six in baseball is one that I saw violated more than once this season. I guess if you’re playing in a band box like Houston’s Enron Field, where no lead is safe; or, if you get a $2 million bonus depending on the number of bases you steal, you bend those unwritten rules.

There are rough hockey players now that seem to care less about those rules, too. You think the Pens’ Darius Kasparaitis wouldn’t level a Mike Modano or Joe Sakic if given the chance?

An unwritten hockey rule that I think is even more stringently followed is: players with a reputation as fighters avoid whenever possible challenging to fights and dropping the gloves with players who aren’t.

Stu Grimson, Sandy McCarthy, Darren McCarty, etc. don’t general fight with others not of their ilk.

Who was that guy that Grimson dropped with one punch the other night? You could tell by the way Grimson didn’t continue pummeling him, but skated away immediately, that his heart really wasn’t into fighting him. And they guy’s reaction was like, “Oh, shit. He’s challenging me. I can’t back down, but I’m going to get my ass kicked.”

14

I’ve known several people who were tough guys in the NHL, and the bizzare thing is that they are all highly intelligent people, one of them, Dean Kennedy, was working on his MBA when he was in the NHL. They do know they don’t have the skills to stay in the game, and that if they stick to their roles they can make the kind of money most people their age can only dream about.

Gretzky when he first started had the advantage of great peripheral vision, so there weren’t many opportunites for people to blind side him, plus he had the ability to anticipate being hit.

Keith

15

Better learn your Gretzky history alot better bud, he was tagged the Great One at the age of 12 I do believe. It might have been 11 or 13, but it was one of those ages. I think he had earned the right carry the title before he got out of junior hockey.

Imagine the pressure the of being 12 and having to carry around the title of The Great One. A remarkable man in many ways.

Alantus

16

I’m pretty sure it was Reid Simpson, not exactly a heavyweight, but fighting is the only reason that he’s in the league. Guys like Simpson can’t back down from a fight because they know that they aren’t on the team for their play making ability and some guy in the juniors or minors would be more than happy to fight, even if they know they’re going to get knocked out cold.

17

Milo, with guys like Mess and Esa Tikkanan on his side, you would be a fool to try to rough up Gretzky.

18

Interestingly enough, once Gretzky and Tikkanen were no longer teammates, Tikkanen’s role, whenever their teams played each other, was to “shadow” Gretzky and harrass him however he could (which usually consisted of following him around and obstructing him as opposed to checking him hard).

19

**

And if it is your assertion that NHL players were reluctant to hit Gretzky during his rookie year in the league because of a moniker he was given when he was prepubescent, you better learn your hockey knowlege a lot better, bud.

20

Hehe, I was quite young at the time but I imagine the 9’s much resembled bullseyes in the very early days. I was just stating that “before he earned the reputation” probably was a poor choice of words for this guy.

I think I will go sit behind the bench now, before somebody checks me in the corner.

Alantus