Holocaust

Great Debates
21

CKDEX: have you ever seen the anti-russian ( “slav” propaganda the Nazia put out? They were castgigated as “suhuman”, etc. But, long-term campaign of hate or no, it came as no comfort to my Ukranian relatives that THEY had a lesser campaign of hate against them when they were in the same mass graves. And see, this is the kind of attitude I was talking about when I mention that some people think some nazi genocide is different than others. Dead due to racism is genocide, whether you are Jewish, Slavic, Gypsy, or whatever. Slavs might not have been campaigned against as long, but the Nazis sure made up for that late start.

Note to others: most of the “Slavs” mentioned as being killed in the 7-10 million range were in the Russian military, or freedom fighters or just a convient source of slave labor. The slavic jews are totaled in the Jews “column” (and doesn’t that sound nazi-like?). There is often no mention of this large group, perhaps as they weren’t part of the “reich”.

Nemo: what do we call it when you don’t tell the “whole truth”? A lie. All the significant groups must be mentioned, or none.

22

A dedication to telling the whole truth is an admirable one, Daniel. In pursuit of it, I suggest you memorize the names of all five, ten, or fifteen million of the victims of the Holocaust, as well as their nationality, religion, age, political beliefs, occupation, marital status, and all of other details of their lives. Make sure that from then on you never say “the Nazis killed a lot of people.” Instead say “the Nazis killed the following people …” and recite everything you’ve learned. Anything less would be a lie.

23

Daniel,

I apologize for being long in replying to the post you addressed to me. Life intervened.

First of all, let me point out the obvious, and say that this is a topic which gets people pretty riled up, regardless of their perspective. In that spirit let me say that in no way did I intend to belittle, demean, deny, or in any way insult the terrible suffering of your ancestors. The Nazis committed atrocities against all sorts of people in every land they occupied. Even the Danes, the Nazi’s supposed “Aryan Brothers” suffered persecution.

Clearly also the Slavs were considered subhuman in the Nazi racist world view. I believe, though I can’t cite anything to back me up right now, that the eventual goal of the Nazis was to reduce the slavs to slave laborers for the Germans who were to settle in conquered Russia. There is a Novel by Robert Harris “Fatherland” which posits a victorious germany with Slavic and East-european slaves. The Novel Was based on a fair amount of research.

However, I still hold that there was something special about the extermination of the Jews.

First, Hitler et. al. always saw the Jews as their primary racial enemy. Witness the amount of propoganda, pages in Mien Kampf etc. devoted to Anti Jewish rhetoric.

Second, The Nazis launched a large-scale thorough campaign against Jewery. Special S.S. squads were formed for the sole purpose of hunting, isolating, and murdering Jews. A great deal of planning on high levels went in to the campaign against the Jews. The Gas Chambers at Auschwitz were designed solely for the purpose of Jewish extermination. Although many others suffered under the Nazis, only the Jews had this much attention payed to their oppression.

Also, much as it pains me to say it, Hitler largely succeeded in destroying East European Jewry. Before the war there were some 3 million Jews in Poland, Comprising 10 percent of the Population. Today there are 15,000. Today Yiddish survives almost only in Academia. The fact is, Hitler killed almost all the Jews that were available for him to kill. This is not true of other ethnic groups.

Again, let me be clear. I understand your point when you speak of the others killed by the Nazis. I grieve for all the dead in this dreadful century. No one should be denied the respect of memory. But I still say that in the planning, the execution, and the results, there is something distinctively awful about the Nazi war against the Jews.

By the Way, to the other posters, Daniel raises some valid points that deserve consideration. I may disagree with him, but I do not find him disrespectful, anti-semetic, or foolish. So let’s lay off the sarcasm. Little Nemo, I’m looking in your direction. This topic is painful enough.

Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat

24

We just got to World War II in my college US History class. Perhaps after some of the lectures, films, and discussions I will have more to post here on the Holocaust in Germany.

I do find it interesting that very few people know(or at least, think about)the camps in California for Japanese Americans. In no way was this situation as terrible as what was going on in Germany, but I think it is worth mentioning that many, many (no numbers at the moment; give me some time)Japanese Americans were imprisoned by the US government because of their ancestry. Does this not smack of sedition?

Anyhow; back to the original discussion. :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Sors immanis et inanis, rota tu volubilis, status malus, vana salus semper dissolubilis.

Carmina Burana: Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi–O Fortuna. Carl Orff: 1937

25

I thought I went well out of my way to state that many of the points made by Daniel were valid, although I didn’t necessarily agree with his conclusions. Daniel responded by calling me a liar because I didn’t agree with him completely. Admittedly, my response to that accusation was somewhat sarcastic but I don’t feel I implied he was “disrespectful, anti-semitic, or foolish.” I don’t consider him to be any of these things.

Personally, I don’t think there’s any doubts that millions of Slavs and Jews were killed by the Nazis. It may have been a million Slavs and ten million Jews or a million Jews and ten million Slavs. I don’t see the importance of arguing about who has “first place”. I feel that the Nazis’ long term plans were to exterminate both groups (as well as several others) and the numbers they actually achieved were directed as much by opportunity and circumstance as by prior intent and planning.

26

Larry, thanks for your reply. We disagree but only in minor details. Hitler DID seem to have a hatred for the Jews more than the other races he was trying to wipe out. But he still killed all the HUMANS we are discussing because of their race/ethnicity/ religion. He DID kill a larger % of the Jews than the Slavs, but it was not for lack of trying.

Little Nemo: I apologize if you thought I was calling YOU a liar, I was not doing so in any way. What I was calling a lie was the standard intreprtation of the Holocaust “where the Nazis killed 6 millions Jews (& others)…” I resent only the Jews being listed, and the rest being regulated to an occasional “and others” like they really didn’t matter. I would not mind seeing the Jewish people listed FIRST, in view of their special targeting by Hitler, et al, but I think we can do a better job of telling the horror of the holocaust by giving more information. Some ignorant people think very little of the Holocaust- “hey, we’re not Jewish, it wouldn’t have been us” not knowing the list of races slated for genocide was based on whim by sadistic psycopaths. To those people I say: IT COULD HAVE BEEN YOU!

27

Martin Niemöller:

On resistance to Nazis, recalled on his death 6 Mar 84

Esprix, who reminds everyone of what was important

28

Could the Cold War be a partial cause of the OP’s concern? Specifically, is it possible that the death of so many Slavs has been de-emphasized due to political bias? Or perhaps because the Soviet Union became so quickly isolated after the war, making accounts and records inaccessible? Afterall, the Allies didn’t trust Stalin even during the war…

29

I apologize to you, Daniel. I misunderstood your remarks and saw a personal insult where none was intended.

I agree that saying just “the Nazis killed six million Jews” ignores a huge number of their other crimes.

30

Daniel: I still would like to see an actual cite for your 7-10 million number.

Were these 7-10 million in concentration camps, were they killed outright during the war, or a combination of the two? Perhaps these “missing millions” are usually counted in the total 20 million war dead that the Soviets had in addition to the 11-12 million killed in the Holocaust.

In any case, Stalin certainly managed to kill more of his own people than did Hitler, yet I have yet to hear of any museums dedicated to that…

31

Larry Borgia:

It’s alive and well in the Orthodox Jewish world, especially amongst the Hasidim.

Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@kozmo.com

“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

32

MR Blue: the Nazis put their Russian POWs in concentration/slave labor camps, plus anyone in the occupied areas that got in their way.
So, then, the POWs who died are “double counted” as both Nazi genocide victems and Soviet war deaths. I’ll try to find a source for you, but the problem IS that these deaths are almost ignored.

Yeah, Stalin killed a bunch of his own people, but mainly for political instead of racial reasons. Dead is still dead, but being killed only because of your race or releigion has a special horror that being killed for being a political enenmy doesn’t quite have. This is a historical item that needs more spreading, tho.

33

As I recall, German POW’s on the Eastern Front didn’t fair any better, there were just fewer of them. The Soviets may argue that the Germans were the invaders and drew first blood, but two wrongs don’t make a right. Not that I’m trying to be an apologist; both sides acted atrociously, caused by initial Nazi aggression, and spurred on by mutual hatred.

As far as being killed for racial reasons vs. paranoid political reasons… To me there’s just as much horror being handed a death sentence for a bogus crime that everybody knows is bogus, but no one is willing to stick their neck for you for fear they’ll be next. My race or religion? I’m guilty as charged even if the sentence is unjust–if I’m killed I have died a marytr. But one of countless thousands to die because of one man’s paranoia? How many people remember those? Seems to me both are dual miscarriages of justice–an unjust sentence for a non-existant crime. I guess it just depends upon your point of view.

34

Phoenix:

I recently read a story on the AP Wire that in an even less known incident, some people of Italian-American ancestry suffered from the same treatment. We all have someone we hate. I guess it’s just that some of us can justify it better than others.

Bitch by Birth

35

The US internee’s/ camps are another story. Note, though, that the internment of enemy aliens (ie citizens of countries you are at war with) is an accepted legal practice, that protects the internees also. The internment of US CITIZENS who happened to be of Japanese race/heritage, was racism, tho & wrong.