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This is a spinoff from my thread: I just want to buy a goddam stereo. Little help?. I think these are different enough questions to warrant a new thread. Plus, that was much more opinion based; I’m assuming much of this thread has factual answers.

If it helps to put answers in context, here’s what I’m connecting: an HP 27” Touchsmart PC and a pair of Polk Monitor 40s.
**What differentiates DACs? **
The price range is astounding. But digital content has been out and available since the 1980s. With the exception of a TI calculator, is there any 80s tech—or even being generous, late 90s/early 2000s tech—that entails high prices? I’m not talking for BluRay or something new(ish) that takes a lot of modern decoding, I mean digital streaming audio from online sources and CDs.

If I have a S/PDIF coax, what makes a difference in DACs? Key measurements to compare? Do I need anything more than the most basic circa-1995 unit?

What about the DAC inside the PC?
If I jump through the hoops of rewiring, I can take the analogue line out from the PC directly to the amplifier. Is there any reason not to do so? Will an aftermarket DAC really be* noticeably *better than the built-in?

On that note, what’s the difference between the line out and the headphone jacks for this purpose?

What does a preamp do?**
From my very limited understanding, a preamp does two things. One, it changes the sound. If you have, say, a reel-to-reel player with nothing but play/pause/line out, the preamp changes volume, adjusts treble and base, etc. Two, it does all this far away from the amplifier. This is because amplifiers generate a lot of electric noise that can disturb the signal going into/out of the preamp (or the signals inside the preamp’s circuits). Kind of like moving an old-school television far away from a hair dryer.

Do I have that right? Anything else?

Would I need one? Windows comes with basic tone control, Winamp and other music players have equalizers, and there are soundcard-based programs to change the overall sound—if needed. Clearly Windows has volume control. So is there anything left for a preamp to do?

Lastly, there’s the amplifier. Okay, now what? What are the key metrics here?

I get that watts don’t scale linearly, but … but how does one tell if the wattage is right for the speakers? Given that 8 Ohms is correct, is there anything else in addition to wattage that should get matched to the speakers? And then what are the key metrics to compare?

Thanks~

What does a preamp do?

The preamp also matches impedances and can be used to buffer one circuit from another in a mixer. it’s not just the output voltage of a particular source that counts, its also how much current it can put out, and this is usually extremely small - so you put in a preamp to lift that signal so it is big enough to drive the main amplifier - Impedance matching in amplifiers is critical. One issue is that impedance is not always the same across a whole audio frequency range - so the pre-amp can also be used to ensure that no matter what the frequency happens to be provided by the source, the amplifier is driven appropriately all the time.

Tone controls are usually located in either the pre-amp or in a dedicated array - sometimes these are simple passive devices of variable resistors, or they can be active devices - there is always a risk that these can introduce noise and so in many higher grade amplifiers these can either be defeated or are not present at all - and you are expected to have a listening room that is correctly optimised - rather than need tone controls to compensate for your room acoustics - such as from sound changing properties of furniture.

DAC’s are a whole nother world, if you have a distributed system, where you have a source in one room that can be picked up across the whole house, you may well have a digital transfer system. The losses in ordinary cable, along with induced noise from, say, other household appliances, would cause unwanted distortion losses and noise in low level analogue signals. In these cases the ‘pre-amp’ may not exist in that sense of the word at all. Instead you may have a digital driver that pushes the low level digital signal from the source out at a higher level.

The distribution system then puts the signal out to the various receivers, these might be audio, video or computer. The digital signal has to be decoded at the receiver and this is typically where you would find some DACs.

The digital signal is unlikely to be transmitted raw, it will be put ‘into’ another much higher frequency signal - a carrier -(indeed one or two of these carriers are actually radio frequency amplifiers but that will depend upon the manufacturer)

We are now in a position that the main power amplifier is built into the main speaker cabinet, however these amplifiers are not the typical analogue ones of the past, they will have a mode of operation called ‘Class D’ - these have the advantage of being very small, produce little heat and are extremely efficient but not every manufacturer does them well, many licence the technology from other companies and Band & Olufsen is probably one of the bigger players in this field.

this is generally not true for baseband audio. Audio uses “impedance bridged” connections where the source has a low output impedance, and the destination device has a very high input impedance. we do this because we’re interested in maximum voltage transfer; “impedance matched” connections are for things like RF where we’re interested in maximum power transfer.

the only times impedance matching comes into play with baseband audio is either with tube amplifiers (due to the output transformers) or distributed/PA sound.

OK, easy enough.

how much people can be convinced to pay for them.

DACs are a solved problem and have been for decades. If you can hear an audible difference between DACs, one or more of them is broken.

the DACs in the PC are good enough, but it’s not uncommon for them to cut corners and have poor noise isolation. Generally you’d hear things like small “chirps” or scratchy noises when the system is doing various things. If the PC’s analog output isn’t noisy, it’s generally fine for most purposes.

output impedance/current sourcing capability. Headphone outputs should be able to drive low-impedance loads like 16 ohm headphones w/o sagging. The Line Out probably expects to see at least a 30 kOhm load impedance, and will sag badly if headphones are connected to them.

Preamps are only really necessary for things like phono turntables; the output of the cartridge is very low so you can’t just connect it to a line input. You need a phono preamp to both boost the signal from the cartridge and apply RIAA equalization. Most home theater/stereo receivers have this built into their “PHONO” input.

If you’re connecting things like a PC, or any CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player, you don’t need a preamp.

Bull. any integrated amplifier that has problems like that should be returned as defective.

yes, you’re listening to too much voodoo.

no, unless it has multiple inputs for source-switching and your amplifier(s) don’t.

you want enough power to drive your speakers to your normal listening volume, with enough headroom to reproduce transients w/o clipping. Generally most receivers and mass-market amps are ~100 wpc which is usually enough. The key thing to realize that cheaper amps/receivers may advertise 110 watts/channel but you have to try to find the fine print, and see if that’s with only one channel loaded. Inexpensive receivers don’t have a robust enough internal power supply to allow all channels to deliver 110 watts simultaneously.

ETA: jz78817’s second answer came in while I was writing. This was based on his first reply.

Assuming** jz78817**is correct, I don’t need to worry about matching impedances, that’s something I won’t need to worry about—especially in as mediocre an environment as a kitchen.

Further, since all signal (sound? tone? what’s the right word?) change is taking place mathematically before hitting the DAC, noise can’t enter the stream, can it?

Do these two factors obviate the need for a preamp?

As for the DAC, all transport is from the PC (kitchen wall) to the speakers (top of one set of cabinets), maybe five to ten feet. The files may be Intenet or basement-based, but from what I understand, that’s irrelevant as far as signal goes (sound-wise).

So I’ve got a DAC in the PC or one I can order for between fifty and a hundred bucks. Is there any difference?

Also, do I need the $10,000 or $7,000 Pear Audio cables?

the only impedance you need worry about is making sure the speaker impedance isn’t lower than the amp/receiver is rated for. e.g. if it’s rated for 8 ohms, then you won’t want to use 6 or 4 ohm speakers. it likely won’t immediately harm anything, but the amp will run hotter and go into clipping sooner.

as for “matching” impedances between components, you can’t even do that with (analog) audio connections. Impedance bridging is the rule for baseband audio; outputs have low impedance, inputs have high impedance.

noise is always present, even on the digital side. it just usually isn’t significant, especially not enough to corrupt anything.

You don’t need a pre-amp or (assuming your PC’s audio output isn’t noisy) an offboard DAC. Even if you had a really really really long cable run from the source to the amplifier, cable capacitance would become a problem before voltage drop, and a pre-amp wouldn’t help that.

yes. one costs at least fifty bucks, the other one you already have.

:smiley:

I actually bought the monitor 40’s the first time out and they’re competent speakers, but they have noticeable resonances that bothered me and they didn’t seem crisp.

So I instead got 2 NHT Classic 3’s. These have an amazingly good spectral decay plot for their price range (read - excellent transient response for the money). I loved them so much I bought the center channel speaker to match.

I had 2 NHT zeros from years before that I used for the rear speakers and I got 2 sub-zeros for the sides.

So my set up now is to play everything from my PC (flac recordings only) through my video card (quality DOES matter here) through an HDMI cable to the Yamaha receiver. I then set that to 7.1 emulation and the whole thing sounds amazing.

Wow, this sounds (heh) great.

The preamp is unnecessary. Check.
An external DAC is unnecessary: It’s worth it to re-route the cables to use the PC’s internal DAC. The cable leaving the PC will be the 3.5mm>RCA plugged into the line out rather than the S/PDIF.

The amp?
I’m leaning towards Audiosource, primarily because it’s the only brand within my price target that I’m familiar with—and even that is tenuous. (We had their equalizer in the system growing up as kids; I rescued it from the attic and integrated it into our parlour a couple years ago.) But there’s Pyle, Pyle Pro, Sherwood, etc. Is there a lot of variations between these brands?

How powerful? How much is “enough power to drive [my] speakers at [my] normal listening volume, with enough headroom to reproduce transients without clipping.”? Plus, that’s a wide margin—from low background when we’re casually in the kitchen to I’m spending the day baking alone and want to wrap myself in a sonic blanket.

Here are the stats published by Polk:

20 to 125 watts is a large-seeming range. Though if I understand things correctly, a doubling of watts generally means just a few ticks of apparent volume. So range to appreciate here would be 20, 40, 80 (full steps in increasing the volume by a few ticks); 125 watts (half step in increasing the volume by a few clicks).

The two amps fit at the 50 watt level, which is … which is what? Maybe six clicks (note how relative that is, too) lower than if I found a 125 watt amp? Do these numbers really mean anything?

The only other metric that they seem to differ on is Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (Amp-100) or for sixty bucks more the Amp-102 says: 10Hz-50kHz + 0dB/-3dB.

How do frequency response numbers work? Is it like watts, where only very large changes are significant, or is the wider range of the Amp-102 clearly discernible?

Since your second amp is almost $200 anyway, I would get this. Virtually everyone agrees that Onkyo makes the best receivers (= integrated pre-amp, power amp, tuner). Plus, you may very well want something that can handle 5.1 sound down the road. I can tell you for a fact that it really does make a difference even when the source material is just stereo encoded.

Also, with a receiver, you can use the HDMI output from your video card. You won’t have to bother with the cheesy analog output of whatever chipset happens to be on your motherboard. HDMI audio is digital. That goes straight into the receiver and gets decoded there.

edit: BTW, when I say ‘video output’, this means even if you’re just playing an mp3 or other audio file. It will still get routed through the video card and out over the HDMI cable to the receiver.

no, they’re all junk. basically it’s stuff made by chinese manufacturers and companies like Pyle and Sherwood pick which ones they’re willing to slap their names on. I can pretty much guarantee the power supplies inside them aren’t good enough for the amp to deliver rated power in real-world use.

I have no experience with Audiosource.

honestly, 50 watts should be more than enough. At background listening levels, you’re pushing less than a watt to the speakers on average.

No. I’m not even sure I understand what you’re trying to say.

human hearing is generally held to be from 20 Hz up to 20 kHz. if you’re an adult, you’ll probably only be able to hear up to 17 or 18 kHz. If an amplifier can’t produce a flat (+/- 0.1 dB) within that range, it’s broken and needs to be returned. Its job is to make the sound louder, not change the sound. if the frequency response isn’t flat, then it’s changing the sound.

If I had to guess, I’d say the Amp-102 probably has a beefier power supply with larger storage capacitors, and the “droop” in the frequency response at the low end is moved down to the inaudible range. It’s nice that they say its response goes up to 50 kHz, but it’s also pointless because 1) we can’t hear anything up that high anyway, and 2) CD and most digital music files use a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz so the highest frequency they can theoretically reproduce is 22.05 kHz. The main thing about having an extended frequency response like that is it’s more likely the response will be flat within the usable audio range.

in any case, your speakers only play down to ~ 50 Hz so whether the amp driving them is flat down to 20 Hz or 10 Hz is irrelevant.

how so?

Not in the traditional sense - granted - it was just a parenthetical caveat. I meant quality in the sense that even a digital signal will be affected by quality of the components in the signal path.

I saw this graphically demonstrated a couple of days ago. I had to drop in an old GT220 video card in place of the HD7950 I had been running. I went to play some music and sweet Jesus was it awful. It was . . . scratchy and distorted and god knows what else. I put the 7950 back in the next day and everything was perfect again.

Years ago, I bought a used Harman Kardon stereo amplifier for my “just a stereo” system. It “only” has 30 watts per channel, but that’s plenty of volume for ordinary use. It’s not whole-house-dance-party, piss-off-the-neighbors loud though. It has no trouble playing movies at ear-splitting levels in my smallish living room.

The two amps you’re considering would serve your purpose just fine. If you wanted to save some money, you could probably find some good deals on eBay since “just a stereo” amps aren’t in high demand like the eleventy.one home theater systems. I got my HK amp for $30, ten years ago it probably sold new for over $200. Decent quality amps last a long time.

ETA: Shoot, did it again. Started a response and hit submit before preview–other posts came while I was writing this.

The thing is, this is about as far down the road as these components are ever going to go (though no one can really say for sure). All video is in the theatre, where I (heart) Onkyo. Movies/TV are driven by a combination of a TX-SR707 and Infinity TSS-1200s. Primary music listening is done in the parlour, also driven by a modest set-up (a Harman-Kardon 3390 driving four Polks and a subwoofer (not 5.1; the four speakers run off the A and B channels from the receiver, a powered sub is attached, and a stereo equalizer balances things out). The parlour has a laptop to feed music from our server, but we keep it intentionally tucked out of the way so its screen doesn’t really enter the space. Basement game room is fed by an older JVC 5.1 receiver. It lacks HDMI switching, but the screen has the requisite inputs. And that’s pretty much it. No televisions in the bedroom, either.

There’s a big, honking, 27” computer display in the kitchen, so video won’t be going anywhere else. I’ve wrestled with this for a while (deciding what to do), and I really can’t come up with a scenario in which I’d wish I had more features than (relatively good) quality sound amplification. Further, wouldn’t the HDMI audio be identical to the digital signal coming from the S/PDIF coax? If I’m understanding earlier posts, converting to analogue within the PC will be indistinguishable (particularly given this environment) from an aftermarket DAC.

The Onkyo amplifier is a hundred bucks more than the Amp-100. Its description has more specs, but again, I don’t know (hence the root of the overall GQ) what they mean in terms of noticeable difference—a key factor, because again, this isn’t the best environment.

Onkyo specs:

Personally, I have found that buying a 5.1 amplifier is a poor substitute and quite an expensive option too.

I’ve found it is far cheaper to buy three reasonable stereo audio amps from EBAY, and, get yourself something like 3 X Sansui D33, go for the ones at their lower ranges and you will not pay out too much - 25 Watt per channel amplifiers will be plenty - but oddly enough, don’t go for those built after around 1985 or so - quality went downhill.

You just drive them from your 5.1 soundcard, this is easy enough. You have to do a little bit more fiddling in terms of changing the stereo since you have three amplifiers to control rather than just the one control knob.

I also found another big advantage, a friend of mine bought an expensive 7.1 logitech set up - the speakers were absolute rubbish, it didn’t sound even slightly a patch on my stereo system, but worse was to come, because when the main amp died, he had lost all of the thing in one go - getting it returned to seller and replaced was a pain.It never did sound as powerful or as good as my stereo system, and now I have turned it into 7.1 there is simply no comparison, except in the price, I paid out pretty much what he did, my stuff is 30 years old and it still sounds a million percent better

By having your system split across 3 amplifiers, if one goes down it is no big deal.

The speakers you get in ‘computer surround sound’ systems are universally awful, they are all rated at completely unrealistic power handling levels - so much so that you cannot believe them, the specs on them simply amount to lies. I could go into exactly why this is, but probably better not to do this, just don’t touch them, they are crap.

Again, go to EBAY and get yourself some older hifi speakers, B&O, Technics, the old classic sort your dad might buy if he was a hi fi buff, he knew what he was doing.

that Onkyo seems like a good choice. it says the quoted power output is with both channels loaded and at < 0.1% THD so it’s realistic. quoting frequency response up to 100 kHz is a bit woo but it doesn’t hurt anything.

a “damping factor” of 100 just tells you the output impedance is about 0.08 ohms.

a high “damping factor” means the low impedance of the output stage acts as an electronic “brake” on the speaker. the movement of the speaker’s voice coil through the magnetic gap generates a back-EMF which can cause poor transient response if the amplifier’s output stage doesn’t sink that back-EMF. this used to be a bigger problem with vacuum tube amplifiers but most if not all solid-state amps have high damping factor so it’s usually not something to be concerned with.

Rythmdvl: I would stay away from S/PDIF. It is definitely NOT the same as going HDMI. Here is what wiki says:

As far as taking the analog output from a PC, that’s a crap shoot. The better the motherboard, the better the audio chipset. Maybe for your purposes a decent sound card makes sense. Then again, maybe the onboard chipset is good enough. I guess try it and see. If you’re happy, that’s all that really matters.

I was poking about Ebay when I realized that I should just keep things simple.

Amazon has the AMP-100 for only ninety bucks and free (Prime) shipping. It’ll take two seconds to hook it up temporarily and give it a listen. If I’m less than satisfied, the return is going to cost me what, ten bucks to ship it back? Definitely worth the trial. And if I’m dissatisfied in the slightest, I’ll just jump up to the Onkyo and save a step.

If it were a better listening space I’d start with the Onkyo directly, but again, it makes no sense to me to pay for subtle fidelity that will get drowned out by the coffeemaker and absorbed by the fridge’s compressor. I’m definitely bookmarking this thread for when it’s time to upgrade one of the other systems or build another room.

Since I’m at a lose end for a moment, here is a bit of an overview of how I see a range of technical issues.

DACs. Over the years DACs have improved astoundingly. The early (i.e 80’s when CD players came on) DACs were quite primitive, and many could not actually resolve the full 16 bit range of a CD. Over time tha amount of digital logic that could be thrown at the digital part of the system has grown for essentially zero, to almost arbitrary amounts. A DAC is a funny device, it lives half in the digital world and half in the analogue. What is technically very interesting is that the boundary between the halves can be moved. In implementing any DAC the devil is in the details. As has been alluded to above, DACs may be sensitive to issues that are not obvious or easy to comntrol. The S/PDIF interface is a fundamentally flawed design because it emebeds the clock in the same stream as the data, and it is possible to recover signal correlated timing artefacts from the clock - a recipe for weird and objectionable problems in the sound. A lot of DAC design over the years has concentrated on resisting jitter - which is the term used for timing noise.

The basic figures of merit for DACs are essentially useless. Most numbers are the simple raw total harmonic distortion (THD) which does not convey most fot he problems a DAC can exhibit. Some DACs will have a jitter figure, but even this is actually useless without further qualification. It is easy to make a DAC resist high frequency tiiming noise, but much harder to make it resist lower frequency noise, and it is the lower frequency noise that causes the trouble.

DACs are extraordinarily sensitive to layout and power supply issues. Exactly the same circuit laid out by someone who really understands the issues versus a run of the mill designer only used to either analog or digital design, but not the issues of the two together, can exhibit significantly different final performance. This is IMHO a vastly understated problem. In the past many very expensive DACs were designed by people who came from a HiFi analog background, and there were total disasters in design that still went for silly money. It is possible to make a very good DAC with cheap parts if the design and layout is done carefully, and trivial to make a mediocre DAC with very expensive components if even one mistake is made in layout.

DACs in computer sound cards are a crapshoot. The test figures are essentially meaningless, and issues that come when you actually connect the output to your sound system - with ground loops, other noise mechanisms, noise from the other digital components - making it hard to get the intrinsic performance you might hope for. But of you are looking for reasonable sound and cheap, it is a good way to avoid spending money.

Amplifiers have similarly changed a lot over the years. The big advance has clearly been in usable class D amplifiers. Tripath led the way, and even although they went bankrupt, you see their chips still used in many cheap and good systems. Many other manufactures make class D chips now, TI for one. At the high end you get companies like B&O selling their Ice power designs to other manufactures, and at the very high end the likes of N-Core making really good amplifiers. However many conventional (class AB and class B) designs are still used. In the realm of home theatre you see Pioneer with Class D, but Onkyo, Marantz, Denon still use Class AB.
Improvements in understanding of design theory and newer components have led to much better amplifier designs and cheaper.

Specifications on amplifiers are mostly useless. Power is close to the only one of a manufacturers specifications that is meaningful. The rest do little more than make you feel good, although with some technical knowledge you can gleam some other facts about the design if you know what to look for. The only power worth looking at is RMS. Things like peak, or “music” power are just flights of fancy. RMS power gives you a solid grounding in the actual capability - covering thermal and power supply performance. Numbers like damping factor are essentially meaningless. Conventional moving coil loudspeakers expect to be driven by a voltage source, and a variation in output impedance of the amplifier from 0.4 ohm (dampling factor of 20) to 0.01 ohm (damping factor of 800) will make a just measurable difference in the very low bass response, and nothing more. In a conventional amplifier the output impedance is nothing more than the output device impedance divided by the feedback factor. It is pure marketing drivel. Total harmonic distortion figures are of marginal value. One thing you can look for is the point where the distortion goes very high. You sometimes see numbers like 0.05% THD, and 1%THD at 20 Watts. This tells you that the amplifier is at its absolute design limit at 20 watts. In reality such designs are more like 12 watt amplifiers.

Power ratings and needs for speakers are not well defined. Speakers have two main power limitations - how much power is needed to drive the bass driver to the point the voice coil slams into the pole-piece and is wrecked, and how much power will exceed the thermal limitations and burn the voice coils out. Both tweeters and bass driver can be burnt out depending upon the type of music. A maximum power rating for a speaker is hopefully going to be suggesting an amplifier power that is below the level you are likely to kill the speaker, and a minimum one where the manufacturer feels you may not get full benefit for the speaker. But it isn’t something to worry a great deal about.

Impedance ratings on amplifiers are an indication of the safe operating capability of the amplifier. A conventional amplifier, acting as a voltage source, will deliver more and more power into lower and lower load impedances, until either the power supply or output devices can’t handle any more. An amplifier is limited by the voltage of its power supply and the maximum current the supply can deliver, and the safe operating conditions of the output devices. This means you can, in principle, use a speaker with less than the recommended impedance, so long as you don’t ask the amplifier to deliver its full rated power. However there are also other issues. It is harder to make an amplifier deliver good distortion figures into lower impedances, and so pressing an amplifier into service in such a manner is probably to be avoided. The need to match amplifier impedance to speakers only matters with tube amplifiers, and in this case the load impedance is selected on the amplifier and is determined by the design transfer curve of the output devices and the impedance ratio of the output transformer. (Most tube amplifiers will tolerate a 2:1 mismatch without much issue.)

Something to beware of when using a computer as an audio source is that unless you are careful to operating system will mess about with the audio stream. It may re-sample the audio to a different sample rate, it may pass it through various mixing stages, and it may reduce the dynamic range. Turing off all this unwanted mess is worth investing time into.

someone better tell the designers of USB, FireWire, and PCI express that their designs are “fundamentally flawed.” Embedded clock works fine at 2.5 GHz (PCI Express and USB 3.0), and it works fine for audio signals. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you a goddamn $1000 TOSLink cable.