Perhaps my limited experience prevents me from seeing this the way it really is, I don’t know. I don’t think a few highly intelligent posters on a message board that consists of quite a few people that are in the 99.5th percentile of intelligence is a great view on general population. Sure, you can definately teach your kids better, I am not saying you shouldn’t be able to. I am talking about the weaknesses I see in it, with the general population.
The fact that the teachers fall below your expectations is news to me, and I conceed that point. I stressed my views on public education, and I guess now I am scared of the pettiness you suggest in board deliberations. I WAS under the impression that these people were creme de la creme or and not the film on top of stagnant milk.
When comparing rotten apples to bruised banannas, which one do we pick? I wouldn’t pick either, I would search for ways of finding the fresh fruit. Both methods, for general population is flawed. We need to fix BOTH of them. To get them fixed we need to have the general population see the problems with them, and that means educating them, thus creating a paradoxial circle that seems impossible to overcome.
I state that I don’t disagree with homeschooling, but I do feel that it needs some slight overview. If that only consists of minimum requirements, and you are wanting to teach your kids above and beyond that, where is the problem?
The scary thing is that those teachers ARE above average on education, as they have college degrees. Even if they are only Bachelor degrees. If they are above average, I shudder to think what those that only have a H.S diploma are teaching their kids, with no overview. We already have a high percentage of H.S graduates that have trouble reading. Two of them are my best friends. (And one cannot even read a clock unless it is digital)
Ignorance is a disease that is nearly impossible to cure. The best way to deal with such a disease is to prevent it in the first place, and that starts at education. Only this way can the fight be won. Wouldn’t you agree? (which is why I am so passionate about education) Education is the most important thing in the world, it is what has made America great, and it will be what destroys it if it is not kept in check. (due to lack of)
*as a note I don’t know the percentage of high school graduates that have poor reading or comprehension skills, so this is more of a IMO statement. I did read somewhere pertaining to this, but I cannot find it with google. I appologize if I am wrong.
…as well as a substantial proportion of people anywhere who gather and work. How will (or do) you prepare your child to deal with everyday life and workplace politics?
This is a good point, I think. Human nature doesn’t really change that much from childhood to adulthood in that regard. Part of life is dealing with issues like this, dealing with bulling, dealing with “tinpot” dictators, and seperating the wheat from the chaff so to say. Dealing with lifes harshness is part of life, it helps us grow, makes us stronger and overall is vital to development of human character. I think protecting our children from these things is bad. I guess that is more of an opinion though.
(OTOH, I feel that protecting our child from abuse from adults, teachers, parents, sexual predetors and the like is a necessary responsiblity of any parent/teacher/mentor)
Dealing with bullies is something you are going to have to deal with all through life. Having experiences to draw from childhood, I think, would be very helpful. I do say this from somebody that was picked on from the time I was little to the day I graduated.
First of all, creationism is not “demonstrably and patently false”. Creationism is a religious belief and such cannot be proven or disproven. If you accept the fundamental underpinnings of creationism as religious truth (which most creationists do), the remainder of the theory follows quite logically. Those fundamental truths seem quite false to those of us who do not accept them. But the government is not empowered to dictate religious belief. Nor is the government entitled to prohibit the teaching of religious belief to children by their parents or by their parent’s chosen proxies.
Second, I do not consider religious education to not be “education”. Parents are entitled to teach their religion to their children. I personally believe that parents should allow their children to choose their religion, but I am not going to deny parents the right to pass on their values and beliefs to their offspring. This is a vital part of perpetuation of culture (for good, or for bad).
Your proposals would interfere in this process, and furthermore would violate rights guaranteed to the people of this country by the First and Fourth, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments (right to freedom of religion, right of free association, right to be free from warrantless search, right to due process, and right to equal protection). As such, they cannot be tolerated.
Well, the fact that God created the earth cannot be proven or disproven. Creationism, a specific doctrine in which claims about the earth are made (such as it is only 6k years old) CAN be disproven, and have been. Thus Creationism HAS been disproven.
As an adult, the way I deal with a bully is to take out my cell phone and dial 911 to summon the police to arrest the individual who is attempting to harm me. A child who does the equivalent in the school system will be chastized for “not dealing with the problem herself”.
Schools seem to believe that using trusted third parties to mediate disputes is inappropriate, and that all people should settle their disputes directly even when the parties in the dispute are grossly disproportionate in power, strength, or influence. This is directly contrary to adult life, where we have judges, police officers, attorneys, counselors, managers, supervisors, and various other forms of mediator all of whom exist at least in part to help resolve disputes in some semblance of a fair and appropriate manner. Just what is it that we’re preparing our children for? What message are we trying to send them?
I reiterate my previous point: it is not necessary to throw our children to the wolves at age five in order to prepare them for adult life.
You can’t disprove a theory that contains within it the assumption that god could have laid down all the evidence of evolution simply as a test of faith. By the definition of god as ominpotent, he could have created you, with all your memories, yesterday and if god did not want you to believe it, you wouldn’t. How can you disprove a theory that assumes an omnipresent, onmipotent being? No matter what evidence you gather, that being could have manufactiured it just to mess with you.
There are other types of bullies than those you can have arrested for assult.
Assuming there is one answer to any given problem is ashort sight. I am appalled to see that.
What about those bullies that use power to make you do something you don’t want. Bullies that push you around with specialized knowledge you don’t have. (or do you assume you know everything)
Bullies come in all shapes and sizes, even those that push you around with implied threats cannot be all dealt with by a phone call to the police. You would get laughed at. What about that guy in the store that is 6’4 and weighs 300lbs that cuts in front of you in line, giving you a look daring you to challenge him? You going to call the police and tell them that he threatened you?
What about conversational bullies. Those that hold the conversation by use of intensity of voice? How do you deal with a situation where you cannot get a word in because they just raise their voice and talk a bit faster.
Experience helps in these situations, calling the cops is not a valid choice. Sorry.
Getting into this is a debate all in itself. Check into the past threads on this topic, read some talkorigins if you are interested. Needless to say, it can be disproven, and has. So well, in fact that The Pope himself had to accept it. Tell me that history has shown the church accepting doctrines unless evidence proved otherwise?
Gee, in my experience bullies were also sexual predators. No one would help me deal with them, because supposedly I needed to learn how to do that on my own. I also was not allowed to run away from them because that was not dealing with them. I also was told not to report their abuse of me because that was either being a tattletale, or according to the teachers to whom I reported the sexual abuse, a liar. Nevermind that I also was punished but the teacher and administrator for losing articles of my clothing including my panties. I was also told that I shouldn’t scream when they beat me or did worse because that only encouraged them. Every single time I tried to gain the help of an adult I was told to deal with it myself.
I have no doubt that my daughter will encounter bullies. I won’t force her to face them alone repeatedly with no backup like I was, and like she would be expected to in a school.
There’s a lot of bullying that doesn’t reach the level of criminal activity. How is your child going to deal with the guy who moves in on his girl? How is he going to deal with the boss who coerces him into working overtime so another worker can go play golf? How about the neighbor who plays his radio too loud? Or the IT guy who takes away his network rights? Or any one of a hundred loudmouths that like to hang out where you child wants to hang out? My mom’s answer was always ‘remove yourself from the situation’. Well thanks mom, but if I followed your advice instead of learning how to deal with things on my own, out in the real world, I’d be living out of my car, working for a temp agency, and probably still be a virgin.
Do any of these involve direct, physical confrontation leading to a fight, or, alternatively, covert harassment the individual by slandering them or vandalizing their property? Because that’s what the typical school approach calls for. Schools discourage seeking out authorities who can “lay down the law”, as it were. But in most of the examples you give the proper resolution is to go to an appropriate mediator and request redress (except for the girlfriend issue, which is more complex, but still does not involve beating anyone up). You do that in school and you get punished.
No, KellyM, alot of schoolyard bulling does not constitute bulling according to school officials. This is actualy benificial because it makes the child take it in his own hands and learn to deal with it without some adult pampering him. And not all cases of dealing with a bully require beating up said bully. To say that tells me you didn’t learn how to deal with bullies. Psychology my dear Kelly.
Lee- So because in your experience all bullies were sexual predators, all bullies ARE sexual predators? Or am I missing a point?
My point is that bullies are precisely what parents need to protect their children from. This stupid idea of making the child deal unassisted with them has lead to children being repeatedly physically and sexually assaulted to the point that the child is irreparably psychologically harmed.
They can if handled incorrectly. If handled incorrectly in the other direction, your child will lose the girl, the network rights, the day off, face in public, etc. Not that he won’t learn a valuable lesson, but the lesson becomes harder to swallow as you get older. You want to come out of your childhood having already dealt with, for example, a school bully. You may have lost your lunch money, or a tooth, or a girl, but at least you get to pocket the experience and refer to it next time, maybe when something more important is at stake.
I am going to have to way disagree with you here. In none of those situations would I recommend going to a mediator, at least not initially. Those were all things that by adulthood one should be prepared to deal with one on one, face to face. You need to know how to tell your boss ‘no, sorry, can’t work the OT this week’. You need to be able to tell your neighbor ‘Hey, sorry to bother you, but I can hear that radio downstairs’ instead of right away complaining to the manager and making an enemy for no reason. You need to tell the IT guy you need access to the sales directory, and you need to tell the loudmouth to shut his yap (at least in theory). If you teach your kid to run to the boss every time a coworker looks at him crosseyed, you will have a kid whose boss would like to see him gone.
Mediators should be, if not a last resort, a back-burner resort. The problem with mediators is that they’re not all nice, wise, and caring, and they’re not going to be there for the aftermath. Mediators are just people with jobs that go home and say ‘you would not believe the crap I dealt with today’. I wouldn’t teach my child to be the crap some other guy has to deal with.
The child is not thrown to lions in a pit to fight with it with hands bare. The responsibility of the parent is to teach the child ways of dealing with problems, and the problems themselves give the child experience to put that knowledge into play. Sort of hands on experience.
Having mommy go to the bully down the street and tell him to stop will only fuel the fire. Going to mommy and knowing that mommy will deal with it by helping the child deal with it on his own is how it should be, IMO of course.
Experience is the foundation for a childs future, pampering a kid spoils him and deprives him of valuable experience.
(but this is all I will debate in this thread on this topic because it is moving away from the OP)
Epimethus, willfullly throwing children into a hostile environment unassisted is child abuse. We put people in jail for allowing their children to be abused by others, including siblings and significant others. Why don’t we put teachers in jail for allowing other children to mistreat the children in their charge? A parent who refused to mediate disputes between children risks being found to be neglecting (or even abusing) them. One family I recall was disintegrated by the state when it became known that the family supported fistfights as a means to settle sibling disputes: the parents went to jail, and the kids were fostered out (separately). Schools routinely look the other way when children elect to settle disputes by fistfights, doling out no punishment (“boys will be boys”), minimal punishment, or, worse yet, disparate punishments.
So, if we’re going to hold homeschools to the same standards as schools, does mean that homeschooling parents don’t have to protect their children from physical abuse?
Wait a minute. You’re saying that parents are responsible to teach their children these things, but you don’t want them actually doing the teaching? Because you’re the one who is alleging that parents can’t do this and that children have to go to school to learn it. I don’t see how this can be anything other than contradictory.
Why do you think I want to homeschool? I think I am far better qualified in teaching my child than a school and that schools routinely fail students, especially in regards to their behaivior towards others. Do you really think forcing a child to face bullies alone repeatedly with no backup is necessary and to not do so pampering?
