home schooling good or bad???

Great Debates
101

As to this whole bullying issue, I that is, perhaps, an oversimplification of the point that Epimetheus is trying to make. The point is not that kids should be bullied as a necessary part of socialization, but that kids need to be exposed to a variety of social interactions, including negative ones, in order to acquire the social skills they will need as adults.

They need to spend at least some time in environments and contexts which are not rigorously controlled by their parents in order to learn how to be self-reliant.

They need to individuate from their parents by interacting with people who have no connection to their parents.

They need to learn that sometimes life isn’t fair, that some people will be hostile to them without cause, and that they need to develop mechanisms for coping with such things, both intellectually and emotionally.

They also need to encounter people who are completely different than they are, who they would never have had any cause or occasion to talk to or know anything about within their own family environment, and from whom they can discover completely surprising things about the world and about themselves.

They need to have secrets. They need to try things that their parents wouldn’t approve of. They need to learn some things the hard way. My parents were right in about 95% of the advice that they gave me, but I didn’t believe they were right until I tried some things for myself. true learning must come from experience, not just from authority.

102

My experience is that homeschooling parents, as a rule (and there are obvious exceptions, which makes it quite easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater) are as good at these things as schools are, if not better. Except perhaps at having interaction with “people who have no connection with their parents”, but I’m not sure I see the merit of that one anyway.

I think your main beef with homeschooling is that parents can use it to more effectively pass on their moral values to their children. Public schools help to “inoculate” children against ideas that the public finds unacceptable, and therefore serve as a means to turn children away from their parents. You like this, because you think many parents have bad ideas that need to be stomped out. Am I not correct?

103

Before I start: I’m not opposed to homeschooling. IMHO, it’s a great option for some families, and I’m glad we have the option of homeschooling if we wish.
Lee, I’m sorry you had those bad experiences at school, but I think it’s unfair to assume those things are endemic to public school.

Sounds like you had some very bad teachers, and a very unsympathetic mother. But the problem was with those people, not with public school as an institution.

According to you, your mother didn’t defend you either. But you’re not dismissing “motherhood” as a bad institution.

I think it’s absolutely reasonable to consider that your unusual family might cause your child some extra grief and to look for ways to mitigate that. But to just assume that public school would be living hell for your child is ridiculous.

Prejudice is a bad thing.

104

Turn children away from their parents? Please. :rolleyes:

No, KellyM, that’s not what I mean. What I mean is that children need to have their own, independent experiences of life in a way which is not micro-managed by their parents. Moral values need to come from personal experience, observation, and interaction with with other people. All other people, not just those which are carefully selected by the parents.

But I wasn’t really talking about morality anyway. (what are you so terrified that the schools are going to teach your kids, btw?) I was talking about what it takes to create an emotionally healthy individual not just a perfectly programmed Stepford kid who says and thinks whatever his parents want him to say and think. If my own daughter thinks exactly like me when she grows up, I will consider myself a failure as a parent.

105

If I had not heard dozens of accounts that mirror my own, and in some cases are much worse, I would think that I was just freakishly unlucky.

If I was the only little girl that I knew of who was raped in grade school, I would think that I was just freakishly unlucky.

If only one teacher had yelled at me for learning too fast and if I did not know many others with that same experience, I would think that I was just freakishly unlucky.

If I had not read case studies of numerous children that were singled out for repeated torture by their peers, I would think that I was just freakishly unlucky.

If I did not hear so many repeating the same stupid things that I was told by teachers to justify there non interverntion, I might think it was safe to send my child to public school.

If my area had not repeatedly refused to raise funding for schools even in the face of clear evidence that it is needed, I might think that this community was prepared to provide children with a good education.

If we did not have the resources to provide a rich and varied education, I would be reluctant to homeschool.

We have the resources and everything I look at tells me that the public schools don’t. I have found nothing to make me think that school has changed for the better since I was a child. I have found much evidence that as a family we are well suited to homeschooling. It angers me that so many would place obstacles in our chosen path.

106

Green Bean, lee’s is not the only story like that I’ve heard. The assumption that these problems are endemic to public school is based on having heard countless such anecdotes from all around the country. There doesn’t seem to be a pattern, except that the problems seem to be worse in suburban schools and small towns than in urban or rural schools. I’m quite sure that there are plenty of perfectly decent public schools out there, but I am also quite sure that there are plenty of perfectly horrid public schools out there, and it’s bloody hard to know which is which until it’s too late.

Diogenes the Cynic: The public schools turn out a remarkably large number of children who are programmed to think exactly like their parents. I think if you’re hoping public school exposure will prevent this, you’re chasing a false hope. The sort of parents who want to achieve this result are remarkably effective in achieving it, no matter what the venue of their children’s education is. Public schools are deathly afraid of interfering in “parental authority” on such matters (because these parents are the noisy ones that will make reelection for the school board difficult).

Is this yet another case of someone finding a fault with homeschooling that is not really remedied by public schooling? Why, I think it is!

107

I guess things are better around these parts than in Illinois. One of the reasons we chose to live in this town was the good schools with good teachers who encourage learning and who do intervene in cases of bullying. I’m sorry to hear that’s not the case where you live.

It’s great that you are in a situation where your family is suited to homeschooling. We hope to spend a year traveling and homeschooling, ourselves.

I wonder what “obstacles” have been placed in your path. Or do you mean that you fear that you will encounter obstacles as you pursue homeschooling. Or do you mean that you fear that people would stop you from doing it if they had the chance? (I don’t get what you mean.)

108

Some have suggested that all homeschooled children should by law be required to submit to standardized testing and all those who are not in the 50 percentile or better, be forced out of the homeschool and into a public school. Some have suggested that only those qualified to teach full time in public schools be allowed to home school. Some have suggested that homeschools only teach with certain approved curricula. Some have suggested that the local school system be allowed to do surprise inspections when they feel like it to ensure that homeschools are up to snuff. Some have suggested special mandatory training and licensing for those who wish to homeschool. Some have suggested mandatory periodic pschological evaluations for all children being homeschooled. These and others are the obstacles of which I speak.

109

Green Bean, actually in Illinois it’s pretty easy to homeschool, thanks to a number of favorable court decisions over the years and a series of conservative Republican adminstrations that were unwilling to tread deeply in those waters. Also, DCFS so abused its authority to investigate educational neglect that the legislature eventually stripped them of that authority. But we’ve had problems with school administrators and prosecutors (such as those in DuPage County) being very quick to file charges of truancy against parents who choose to homeschool. And with the incoming Democratic administration, it’s entirely possible that things may change.

There are people (you can find some of them posting on the Boards) who think that homeschooling should be abolished entirely, or that ridiculously high standards should be imposed on homeschooling parents – standards that are not even imposed on public school teachers, in some cases.

110

Thanks for explaining. Now I understand.

I feel that there should be some sort of regulation or quality control to make sure homeschooled kids are actually being schooled. Every system I’ve heard of (like the ones you describe) is fatally flawed, though.

Come to think of it, they can’t even think of a reasonable way to do quality control in ordinary public schools, so why would it be any easier to do it for homeschoolers?

I often wonder why it takes only 3 hours to take the SATs, but the 8th grade standardized tests (in NJ) take a week. If three hours is considered sufficient to predict how a person will fare in college, I just don’t see why it takes a week to figure out if kids are reading at grade level. :rolleyes:

111

This is one of the reasons why so many of us are deeply suspicious of attempts to “regulate” homeschoolers. Most of the methods proposed don’t seem like they really have much to do with ensuring that students are well-educated, or even educated at all. When stuff like this comes down, it looks awfully like attempts to regulate away homeschooling entirely, or at least limit it to those who can afford to bribe or otherwise chase off the regulators.

112

Yes, that is exactly my point about obstacles. They can’t do QC for their own system and yet many want them to manage it for all the homeschoolers.

In my opinion part of what is wrong with public schools is that anything that happens in them is shrugged off as unavoidable and “those are the breaks.” People tend to assume that whatever goes on in them is not too terribly bad and they know best anyway.

The most oppressive part of my public school career was that there was no escape short of graduation. While I plan to let my child participate in things like park district programs, for various reasons including giving her time out of our sight, these programs do not run on for her entire childhood, and I will be quite willing to withdraw her if she wants to withdraw. Pulling a child out of public school is not as easy and fairly likely to bring with it unwanted scrutiny. Given our non-traditional home, I don’t want that kind of scrutiny.

113

Lee, I was pulled out of elementary school in '86…if you fear that it’s difficult now, try accompanying your mother to the grocery store at noon on a Monday at a time when most people hadn’t even heard of homeschooling.

It’s been around long enough now that people have not only heard of it, but have strong opinions about it…it has also achieved some measure of “normalcy” because of its increasing popularity.

Man, when I was a kid…:rolleyes: You’d have thought everybody on the street moonlighted as a truant officer.

(I’m just sharing that b/c you jogged a memory. :D)

KellyM, I am not arguing with you, so much as pointing something out from the perspective of the only person on this thread who has been the homeschooled kid. (Unless I missed a post…) Most of you are either homeschooling, want to homeschool, know someone who was…my point is that I was that kid. While my experiences aren’t a mirror image of everyone else’s present or future experiences, I do think that it gives me a unique viewpoint on the whole question.

And all I am saying is that, when you set out to shelter your child from all the bullies in life, give some thought to the fact that they’re going to encounter them anyway. And that you may inadvertently be crippling their ability to deal. (And this is not an argument against homeschooling at all; if I had it to do all over again, and I could choose, I think I’d still have chosen to be homeschooled. I’m just trying to balance the debate here a bit.)

I am still trying to overcome my difficulty in dealing with negative people/situations, as an adult. I’m still trying to figure out what I really think, when push comes to shove, vs. my parents’ pre-programmed ideology. I’m still trying to become my own person, because for so many years my opinions were handed to me on a plate, like dinner. I’m not saying that my parents were always wrong, or that everything they believed is a crock, but what I’m saying is that I didn’t even get to ask the question til I was 17 years old. I didn’t even have a best friend; the homeschooling community was too small and I was too much of a loner.

I grew up in a box, basically.

I guess what I’m saying is that homeschooling is not the answer that rights all potential wrongs. That it isn’t a failsafe solution that can’t help but raise up a happy, well-adjusted kid…and that all the pitfalls aren’t just lurking in public education.

You can’t raise your kid in a box. You can’t, however much you love them, protect them from every bully. And there are some battles that have to be fought alone.

I wish you and your girlfriend all the luck in the world with your daughter; I applaud your vigilance and your concern…and I think you’re on the right track.

Just don’t, in your efforts to shield your daughter from The Big Bad World, forget that it’s waiting for her anyway.

114

I’m not making that assumption. But I do believe that there is a substantial risk of it happening. And I don’t see the benefits associated with public schooling as sufficient to outweigh that risk.

115

I meant that I thought lee was making that assumption, not you.

I certainly can understand why you and lee and Mr. lee want to homeschool Kellee Jr.! Any thoughtful parent has to weigh the pros and cons of the various types of schooling available, and try to make the best choice. It just seemed to me that lee may be overestimating one of the cons of public school. But she’s defended her position, and I can see where she’s coming from. Perhaps if I were your position, I’d make the same choice.

116

Just to follow up on what Ms. Levins says…

The question is this: do we want our children to learn how to behave from us, or from other children?

Whatever your feelings on socialization, sooner or later, we expect the kids to act like adults, which of course, they’re going to have to learn from adults.

My wife and I homeschool our kids and, like Audrey, we’re kind of tired with the socialization question.

Another homeschool parent told me, “Yeah, I guess my son has to learn what to do when someone smashes him in the face, but does he have to learn it at age 6?”

My son, bless his heart, is just like his father (that’d be me) was at that age. I don’t know if it’s ADD or a little touch of Autism, or what, but he apparently has very little apptitude for interaction. We actually paid for day care that we didn’t need just for the “socialization.” He ended up being ostracized. Kids pick on those that are different.

Not only that, he’s smart as all get out, so that makes him a little different too. Any very intelligent people on this board remember what it was like to be the nerd in school. I usually won the fistfights, but that was little consolation when I was tormented daily and repeatedly by the jocks, preps, etc.

117

Green Bean, just as a matter of record, our child’s name is (will be) Loren Quinn.

But I think the risk is quite high (three parents? who has three parents?). In addition, our school district is woefully underfunded, and if they don’t get a cash influx soon, will be insolvent before Loren hits school age. Somehow I don’t want my child going to a school that can’t even afford to pay the teachers. They’re already announcing cutbacks for nonessential subjects like art and music.

118

Indoctrination is a “scarry” word, but it’s accurate. One way or another, a child will learn values. So do parents teach that child values, or roll the dice and hope the teachers do a respectable job?

Some will say that parents will always have a role and that teachers’ POVs allow the child to have a broader base of experience to form their own values from. Sounds nice, unfortunately, you end up with a situation where a child has competing authority figures. If one says A and another says B, the child gets confused and may or not make a morale choice, may or may not rebel in general and may or may not get the idea that everything is morale, so long as you believe it is. Upshot is – it’s a chance that I’m not willing to take.

On the flipside, by advocating parents’ rights over the state, society does take a risk that parents will indoctrinate their children in ways most of us would find abhorrent. That’s the problem with freedom, some people abuse it.

119

Yeah, I knew her name was to be Loren. I love it, BTW. But I was really impressed with myself for the concatenation of Kelly and Lee. Kellee! My cleverness astounds me. :wink:

120

don’t sweat that… no one has ever asked me if my grammar, middle or high school was accredited.

Those are issues to sweat about.

Like you, I got concerned about education as my son neared that age. I actually ran for school board because I didn’t like the things the superintendant said about education theory. We couldn’t afford private school, so I talked my wife into trying homeschooling for kindergarten and we’ve stuck with it.

Don’t shout me down here, cause I would have four years ago, but now that I look back and think about it, all that is really required for a good education between birth and HS is the ability to read (and comprehend), write (communicate well) and perform the basics of math (up to say basic geometry and pre-algebra).

If a child can read, communicate and do the necessary math, the child can learn anything.

Now we teach science and geography and social studies and the such, don’t get me wrong. But really, someone who is curious about another culture will learn about that culture and someone who is forced to take a test will forget everything after the test date.