QueerGeekGirl, the big problem I had with public school is this: my oldest daughter (who was 13 at the time) was getting threatened with phyisical violence at school. I called the principal, and he said that until the girls threatening her actually did something, there was nothing we could do. Oddly, this attitude only applies to children (at least around here). In this county, if an adult threatens another adult with violence, it’s verbal assault and legal steps can be taken. But somehow, if a 15 year old threatens a 13 year old, they sit and wait! So you see, learning how to get beat up doesn’t really prepare her for life in the adult world, where this behavior isn’t tolerated. I couldn’t stand to see her crying every morning when it was time for school, because she was frightened. Hence, the decision to homeschool.
My younger daughter, OTOH, was an entirely different thing. She’s super bright (possibly gifted), but has ADD. In public school, she needed to be medicated. I also didn’t think public school was ever going to bring out the best in her (some folks thrive in public school, others don’t. I’m sure you’re aware that the kids who got the highest grades in school were not necessarily the smartest; only the ones who had figured out exactly how to tell the teachers what they wanted to hear). Hence, our decision to homeschool her.
I’m working hard on teaching my kids not to write run-on sentences like their Mom does.
She’s nearly 3 so it’s not like school is around the corner but I know it’ll be here soon. I know all mothers think their kid is brilliant and I’m not claiming she’s a genius or anything, but I can tell already that she’s very, very bright and I don’t want her to be bored for 13 years. DH went to a tiny Christian school all his life and hated it. I went to a public school my whole life and I feel like I’m still making up for it. I’m learning stuff in a Geography class in college that I should have been taught in 7th grade, ya know?
The public schools around here aren’t that great and turns out our church is probably going to have a school in operation soon, so we’ll probably send her there for elementary school. Once she hits middle school, I think her input is warranted. If she wants to stay at the church’s school, she can. If she wants to go to ANOTHER Christian school, that’s fine too. If she wants to be homeschooled I won’t have a problem with that either but she’d better be ready to have her ass out of bed and in her classroom by 8:30 every morning.
I’m not wild about the idea of her going to public school at all, but if she has a legitimate reason for wanting to go (maybe she’s going to be some kinda softball or musical whiz and will need access to this in a school), I’m sure we’ll take that into consideration.
It’s not that I think all public schools suck and that if she goes to one she’ll turn out to be some heathen. I know a Christian school is NO guarantee that she’ll never go through a rebellion, DH assures me that Christian school kids are usually just more adept at hiding what they’re up to. It’s very important to me that she learn Spanish as well as another language, though, and the public schools here just can’t deliver on languages like the private ones can.
My younger daughter, OTOH, was an entirely different thing. She’s super bright (possibly gifted), but has ADD.
Most ADDers usually are very bright.
And I’m not just saying that because I have it
This is one thing that really pissed me off: I didn’t get diagnosed till I was 20. Later I bumped into a couple of high school teachers I had and told them I’d been diagnosed and they went “oh I coulda told you that.”
Well um, under Kentucky law, they were legally required to, and didn’t. (KY education law says that if a teacher notices anything like that in a kid, they HAVE to call it to the parent’s attention and the school has to test the kid if the parents want them to.)
I think if I’d been medicated in high school it definitely would have helped me in numerous ways. I was a hair away from flunking out of college when I found out I had it. Now I’m medicated and on the Dean’s List, who knew?
So much wasted time! I’m just thankful I’m on the right track now, ya know?
Nori, your girl is probably much, much better off being homeschooled. I think ADD is exacerbated by being in a classroom full of kids where you’re not allowed to really learn at your own pace.
I had, and still have, a lot of reservations about homeschooling. as a product of public schools, i had always seen homeschoolers as weird, quite often religious fundementalists.
my wife homeschooled my kids for 1 year while she still lived in a small town. turns out that the religious fundies were in the schools, and her only way to stop that indoctrination was to remove them from the school. in addition, there was a paddling policy, and my oldest son was paddled almost every day for offenses that would not even get his card pulled in his present school. i should also add that at the time, my wife was in her last year of her bachelor’s in education, and her mom, a former teacher, helped.
so, i can see both sides of the issue. i’m still against homeschooling in most cases, but can see that it works for some.
though i tend to think that homeschooling past a certain age is detrimental- unless the parent is very highly educated, the child will miss out on higher level maths and sciences.
Homeschooling through high school is still fairly uncommon. Many parents, as Stonebow mentions, simply don’t have the level of knowledge personally to properly teach mathematics and science on a high school level. Typically homeschooling is done out of a genuine interest in providing the best for the child and when it becomes evident that the parent can not provide the educational quality that a more highly-trained teacher could the concerned parents choose to send their children to a public or private school.
Some parents choose to get help. There are co-op teaching programs where families who homeschool can meet occasionally and if one of the parents has expertise in a field they build an informal “classroom” and let that parent teach a “subject”. For instance, twice a week in my area there is a professional musician who homeschools his own children and offers “classes” to other homeschoolers in the area. If you want your child to lean music but you are not a musician yourself, you can go to these informal classes and gain many of the benefits of homeschooling(smaller class size, informal atmosphere, parental involvement) as well as the expertise of a professional in the field being “taught”.
Some parents choose to use cirricula designed for homeschools for high school level classes. I’ll admit that book learning is a poor substitute for a teacher who personally has extensive knowledge and a love for the subject(although I may argue with someone who asserts that public high school teachers are very likely to have extensive knowledge and/or a love of the subject). Still, it is an option and the cirricula designed to fit a homeschoolers needs and learning style would be an advantage. Many of these cirricula have extensive teacher preperation materials which aid a parent who is not highly educated themselves in providing a high quality of education for their child(ahd raise their own knowledge level in the process). One of the things homeschoolers learn very early is that they won’t have all the answers to all the questions the kids may ask. The parent and the child often take time to go research the question together at the local library or on the internet. Just because they don’t already KNOW the answers doesn’t mean the homeschooling process can’t work.
Oh, and we actually had a very structured(for homeschool at least) schoolday. We went to school from 8:30 to around noon. Mom didn’t want us running all over the neighborhood and possibly raising the eyebrows of any truant officers. So the time from after lunch to ~3 when the other kids got out of school was often spent cleaning the house, washing dishes, folding laundry, cleaning our rooms, etc.
Hmm. Now I’m getting why some people are into homeschooling.
I was assuming that it went through high-school. I had a miserable elementary school experience (I went to Catholic school- yeck) and used to cry every morning before I had to go. I finally begged my mom at the end of sixth grade to take me out and she did. Then I went to public school.
My high school experience was alot like Queergeekgirl’s. My family was poor, we only had heat half the time, lived in a studio (with three of us, my mother actually slept in the closet) ect. ect. But we lived like that in a good area because my mother was adamant that I wouldn’t go to one of the “ghetto schools”. So I went to school with a bunch of rich kids (yes, my best friend at one point actually had a horse). I ended up really enjoying high school because I had some awesome friends (some rich, some more like me - one of my friends lied about her address so she could go to school there) and from that, I’m able to deal with a HUGE range of people. I was never involved in activities but just being surrounded by so many people every day gave me enough social contact and interaction that I was happy.
Like I said before, I’m a really shy person by nature and have to be around people constantly in order to make friends, it’s really hard for me to just strike up a conversation with someone I happen to see periodically.
That’s where my concern about homeschooling came from. I think it would’ve been very detrimental in my own personal case, I’d probably have no social skills whatsoever. But I see how it can be beneficial for some as well, at a younger age.
One thing I thought about though, because a homeschooled child is really only exposed to one teacher (the parent) on a regular basis, does anyone think that will effect them when they either re-enter the school system, private or public, (if ever) or college? How will the student learn to deal with different types of teachers? Let’s face it, some are great, some are assholes, most fall in the middle. Can a homeschooled child get too comforatable with a particular teaching style?
For one thing, your reasoning may be flawed. In high school, I had an English teacher whose degree was in History. He taught straight from the textbook, and knew a lot less about English than half of his students did! IOW, there’s no guarantee that public school teachers are any brighter than many parents who are homeschooling. But, our oldest daughter has reached a point where she’s in advanced math, and my husband, while very good at math, is not patient enough to be a good teacher. We’re dealing with this by putting her into a college Algebra class at the community college.
Not speaking for all homeschool families but my brother and his wife homeschool all 6 of their children. The oldest one just completed his GED, and has actually been taking classes at a nearby community college for the past year.
Their family is plugged into the local homeschool network you’ve read about in previous posts. In their situation, this meant their children have received music lessons from musicians, art lessons from artists, math from those who studied it in college, etc. So not only are they getting a varied education from people well-qualified to teach those subjects, they are also learning from a variety of sources.
I think it’s common for people to view homeschooling as a sort of Little House on the Prarie type of experience. No doubt a lot of that did go on when people lived pretty far apart. But that’s not the norm today, at least not as I see from not only my brother’s family but others in the area here who do homeschool.
I’m a fairly smart kid, (16) and I do pretty good in school. I was homeschooled until 7 1/2 grade, and ever since, i’ve been going on momentum. I enjoy school, but only because of the social aspect. The learning I could get done in less that four hours–no problem. If learning is considered the primary goal of our public education system, it’s fair to say that most of our time is wasted. In my school at least.
I haven’t seen anyone mention what’s called ‘unschooling’–basically self-teaching. Beyond the basics, most people can teach themselves. I’m pretty confident to say that most homeschoolers do mostly teach themselves. In my earliest years, I was taught to love reading. My belief is that if this seed is planted, most people could learn to love reading. I would read some textbooks, and devour all other kinds of books. Therefore–
I thought.
People don’t think. Society goes through the motions every day, without really reflecting on anything. “The unexamined life is not worth living”–People don’t examine, and it’s a direct result of not reading.
Put READING next to EDUCATION, then put an ‘equals’ sign between them.
“I enjoy the closeness of having my son with me during the day instead of having him off at some sterile high-school.” And how does your son feel about this? And where do you live? I want to visit a sterile high-school.
I have only anecdotes, from the, oh, couple dozen homeschooling families I have known. All were bad mojo. The one family where the kids came out okay, the poor mom wore herself to a nub. Her husband (ahem, my relative!) is basically a good guy, but his wife felt that, if she took the time spent with the kids and used it for a job, they could afford to send the kids to a great private school. Excellent point, I always thought. After a few years, when he was making major bucks, she suggested putting them in a middle school where she could do a lot of volunteer work and be very active and keep an eye on the day-to-day quality of her children’s education and contribute to the education of others. Again, excellent point.
In the other families, although the children are (with one alarming exception who was probably born that way) okay as citizens now, their educations were erratic and shoddy. All required weeks of expensive tutoring to catch up when they either demanded to go to regular school (which almost all of them did… actually, I can’t remember any exceptions) or got ready to think about SATS. As might be expected, they tended to be very good in the subjects that came easily to their mothers (never met a homeschooling dad) and had a weak grasp of subjects that were difficult for their mothers. Every family had at least one episode of long-term cheating, and in a couple of cases my stupid friends didn’t realize that they weren’t so much “teaching” there children, and having them copy answers onto test pages. Oh, my stupid stupid friends. It’s funny how they managed to get an MS and then go on to be fooled by their own children whom they love dearly and only want the best for.
The problem is, of course, that once you get past elementary school, you need to be taught by someone who loves and understands the subject. Sure, that’s not always going to happen at public school, or even private school, but I really have to shake my head while watching the friends I saw struggle through high school and college “teach” their children all the subjects.
Thinking back on this, I realize that almost all the homeschoolers I’ve known had more than enough money to send their children to good private schools.
It’s nice that many homeschoolers and products of homeschooling have posted here. The next time I’m out, remind me to start asking people if they do or were homeschooled, and see what the set looks like then.
One of the things in favor of hubby and I beginning to homeschool our kids was the fact that his knowledge set and my knowledge set balance each other very well. I’m English/Language/Art/Music, he’s Science/Math/History. He does about as much of the homeschooling as I do.
I occasionally work with groups of home-schooled children. In general, I don’t find them any more or less intelligent or curious than children in a traditional school. However, many (not all, but many) have a problem with not interrupting me or other students, raising their hand before speaking, etc. Kids in traditional schools are much better at that sort of thing.
This is one of those really odd situations which has advantages and disadvantages. There is a tendancy for homeschooled kids to not have the same kind of group interaction processes that traditionally educated(I’m going to use this as shorthand for Publicly and Privately educated even though it actually ignores the historical prevelance(up until the middle of the 19th century) of home-education. For thousands of years all but the very wealthiest of families educated their children themselves and even in the weathiest families formal education was for the older years) students have. They are typically more willing to interact and give input on whatever is being presented. It is a difference which grows out of the more informal nature of the homeschool and the child having been educated in a system with very few peers and a very high level of student-teacher interaction. It tends to re-inforce the natural “I am the center of the world” attitude that children are born with.
I have a fairly unique perspective on this because I was one of those students and I have seen this tendency in myself. A quick breakdown of how it has helped and hindered me may be useful. I’m going to be brutally honest here.
Helped: I rarely leave a meeting/presentation confused. I feel perfectly comfortable asking questions, even possibly “dumb” questions. I’ve had some of my more question-shy peers approach me after a class/meeting/presentation and tell me that they appreciate me asking questions because they had a similar question in mind but didn’t quite know how to put it into words or were too shy to ask. Because, at least in part, of the high level of teacher-student interaction I learned when I was a child I paid a lot of attention to a speaker and I am a very attentive audience. This increases my comprehension and speakers often appreciate attentive audiences. A good many speakers appreciate interactive audiences. There was a meeting this morning where my vice president at my company was speaking and he virtually had to beg for questions and feedback from his audience. I have been recognized and rewarded for my participation and remembered by speakers as one of the ones they can count on if they want an interactive session(more in the classroom setting than the work world).
Hindered: Sometimes I come off as a person who loves to hear themselves talk, a know-it-all, or a suckup to the presenter. Probably the worst was when I got some subtle feedback that I actually detracted from the presentation and I should decrease my participation level. Sometimes the transition from presentation to Q&A mode isn’t pretty and it breaks the flow of the meeting. One particular time I recall a two-day class on IT security in the workplace. I interacted with the presenters on both days and they complimented me on my participation and said the appreciated an attentive/interactive audience. The problem was that some of my co-workers, as it came out later, actually felt inhibited and me being highly interactive made them think “oh, well Steven will answer that question, I’ll just keep quiet” or “Just shut up and let him get on with it!” I’ve had to stop and think when the impulse arises to make a comment or ask a question “Will this interruption help or hinder the class as a whole?” If I had a minor point I’d like clarified for my own understanding, is it worth interrupting the presenter to get that point clarified? This is a real balancing act becuase(as I indicated above) I’m often not the only one confused. If I feel a bit lost and I look around and see lots of blank faces and believe a good number of other people are lost as well, then I’ll ask my question. If it looks like I’m the only one lost, then I’ll take my lumps and figure it out later or await a designated Q&A time.
So, when is it ok to speak up, and when is it better to keep your mouth shut? I’d guess that this problem is universal but the “default” setting is different on homeschooled kids than on traditionally educated kids. By default homeschooled kids expect a high level of interaction and the formalities of “raise your hand and wait to be recognized before you speak” aren’t really observed. This seems to be reversed in traditionally educated kids.
I’m not sure which is better. A balance obviously would be best, but I tend to lean towards the idea that more interaction is better than less. The framework of “raise your hand and wait to be recognized” has been way overapplied IMHO. Too much overhead during communication is a barrier in and of itself. Factor in shyness and all the other barriers to communication and the result seems to be people who physically live/work/learn together, but don’t actually communicate. Breaking down those barriers is hard enough without imposing formal communication rules on more situations than absolutely necessary.
Um, if that was your business I would list it under “location”.
No, you don’t. You wouldn’t like it.
The school in question is brand-new. It opened last fall. During school hours, there is only one unlocked entrance to the building. All visitors must pass through that office. All of the outside doors lock after the first tardy bell. If any door is opened an alarm sounds immediately in the office. The building interior is as cold and forbidding as a prison. This spring they have instituted a drug-testing policy where they can select “suspicious” students for testing. At the student’s cost.
My son is currently enrolled in a “self-study” program. His average at the moment is high B/low A. However, in the occasion that he needs help, I can grasp enough of high-school subjects to teach them. Seeing as how I’ve passed them once already.
Another generalization. I’m a single mom without a dime to spare.
I home-school my son for various reasons, one of which is lack of academic standards at the community high school. There are plenty of public schools in this Metro area which turn out crack-heads and murderers by the dozens. I frankly think that between my son and I, we can do a better job of producing a high-school graduate.
I can see what you’re saying, and to some degree, I agree with you. But when I’m trying to take 15 kids through the museum, and they all want to talk to me at once, it is necessary to have some kind of system of imposing order.
Honestly, a large part of my problem also comes from homeschooling parents who think that I can make a program relevant and interesting to both a 4-year-old and a 13-year-old at the same time.
[quote] Originally posted by j.c.
And how does your son feel about this? NinetyWt:He’s the one who suggested home-schooling.
Nonetheless, the first thing you mentioned was your interest in the arrangement. Does it surprise you that in a thread about what’s best for the children, I noticed your comment about ‘enjoy the closeness of having my son with me.”
[quote]
*Originally posted by j.c.*And where do you live? NinetyWt:Um, if that was your business I would list it under “location”.
I want to visit a sterile high-school. No, you don’t. You wouldn’t like it.
[quote]
The reason I expressed curiosity about your location is that, if the high school is indeed sterile, you must live in a truly unique place. High schools are not sterile. They are full of messy people who have all kinds of different ideas and different goals and different attitudes. (And of course, many of those younger people spend much of their brainpower on variations of some simple, traditional ideas: who is and isn’t cool and why do parents and teachers spoil everything.)
I specifically said high schoolers need to be taught by someone who loves and understands the subject. There’s a world of difference between ‘loves and understands” and “grasp enough.”
[quote] “Another generalization. I’m a single mom without a dime to spare.”
That wasn’t a generalization. I clearly identified everything I presented as “only anecdotes, from the, oh, couple dozen homeschooling families I have known.” That is not generalizing. To generalize, I would have, instead of identifying the source of my post as my personal experience based on a couple dozen families, presented my observations as though they reflected homeschooling in general.
Norinew jumped in to add her own perspective out that her husband helps with the homeschooling and that she and her husband both have different areas of expertise. So now we have more anecdote. Because homeschooling is a private activity, good empirical survey data on who is homeschooling and what they’re teaching. (The number of children who are homeschooled for time, but came from or then go on to traditional schools further blurs the big picture.)
I frankly think that between my son and I, we can do a better job of producing a high-school graduate.
Because your son will be running the world when I’m old and gray and eating cat food/playing golf in Florida, I certainly hope you are able to produce a high school graduate who goes on to a happy and productive life.
The OP asked general questions about homeschooling and people are giving opinions. Stonebow for instance, is against home schooling in most cases but won’t deny that it might be best for some.
Burundi I guess this docent work has also made you a master of clear and concise speaking and writing. Very helpful posts.
I think I’m getting the rules of how you would like to see this offering of opinion go. You like the posts of people who don’t like homeschooling even if their offerings are anecdotal. You don’t like the posts of people who are doing homeschooling if their offerings are anecdotal. Oookay we get it now.
I could counter your anecdotal offering about the families you have known who homeschool with some horror stories about families I have known who choose school but then I’m well aware that failure as a homeschooler is unthinkable (none of those dreaded gaps in learning) and it’s OK for kids to fail in school.
I’m another homeschooled kid, now 24. I was homeschooled from grade 8.5 through high school. My parents knew that they wouldn’t be able to teach me higher maths and sciences, so we just took advantage of the dual enrollment program at the local community college when we needed it. It was great. I got the college-level classes that I needed, and by the time I graduated high (home) school, I was most of the way through an associate’s degree. Transferred almost 60 hours to university, IIRC. I feel that community colleges are a wonderful resource for homeschoolers, especially if the parents aren’t experts in every subject. The teachers are usually delighted to get students that really care about learning, and it gives the student a taste of the work that may be required at a university while giving them fully transferrrable credits.
Of course, the only reason I needed to be homeschooled was because I loved to read and learn. When I realized I wasn’t learning anything at school, I became violently depressed. That love of learning can get you in trouble! It’s also what got me into grad school on a full fellowship. YMMV.
Thanks mom 
It’s also what got me into grad school on a full fellowship. YMMV.