Of course not. It’s just not “pure torture” for a kid not to have pizza or McDonalds.
No, but it was likely pure torture to walk/be pulled and carried across two countries, and pure torture for mom to have to watch her kids suffer, to have to push them and increase their short term suffering, to have to listen to them cry and whine and beg to rest, knowing that this was the best bet for their long term safety and comfort.
That’s why it’s such bullshit to accuse her of being a bad, indulgent parent. She’s indulged her kids less than anyone I know. She’s hurt them, pushed them, given them every reason to resent her because they can’t see the whole picture. So using this one indulgence to suggest she has poor impulse control, or isn’t willing to make sacrifices in the best long-term interests of her children, lacks all sense of perspective.
I’m sure it was tortuous to make that trek. And she can spend her money on whatever she wants.
It’s just not “pure torture” for a kid to not have pizza or McDonalds.
“How” and “why” are different questions. “Why” is “because I am the one giving you the money”.
It depends on the circumstances, and I don’t know if you can draw a bright line. Of course, the woman in the OP did not use the $50 to barely sustain her life, or those of her children. Apparently her definition of what she needed is different from mine. That’s OK - I don’t need to give her the money.
The short answer is, did I work for it, or was it given to me as a gift? People have given me gifts, certainly, but it is not difficult to figure out what is a gift and what is something I earned.
That’s not how businesses typically work, and I don’t work for a non-profit.
No, there you are just wrong. There are several metrics that go into deciding how much of a raise I get, or even if I get a salary at all - how much I produce is pretty closely tracked, and gets brought up at every performance review. There is a rather close connection to what I produce and what I earn.
She didn’t earn it; it was given to her as a gift. Read the OP.
Do you think immigrants should be paid for trying to immigrate? I don’t think so. If I am supposed to pay her, what benefit has she produced for me? Walking a long distance and standing in line is stressful, no doubt, but why should she get money for doing it? I don’t remember agreeing to that deal, even in principle.
Regards,
Shodan
But a lot of people here seem to feel that her choice was an example of bad parenting–that by indulging her kids, she’s revealed herself as an irresponsible parent and a bad example. Do you agree with that assessment?
I’m sort of in and out of this thread, but who exactly said that depriving kids of pizza was “pure torture?”
Never received a bonus, either. Poor you.
That is exactly how businesses work. Many businesses give out cost of living increases, or give raises for seniority, even if there is not higher production. Sometimes, if they are a union shop, there is no choice, and raises are automatically given, whether the employee deserves them or not.
If you get a raise to cover your increased costs of living, even though you haven’t increased your productivity, how is that not “charity”?
Your repetition that you don’t work for a non-profit adds nothing to this discourse. Is there a point you think that it is making?
This is completely untrue. You are not paid what you produce. No one is. If you are paid what you produce then there is no money for profit. So, it is a question as to how much profit the owners are willing to forgo in order to procure your services. the higher that ratio is, the more charitable they are being. There are bosses who take as much as possible, and there are bosses who are more generous. You make more than MW, right?
I did read the OP. Apparently, she had achieved celebrity status, and was rewarded financially. If the money was given to her because the person who gave it to her felt that she had earned it, who are you to argue?
You also don’t have to pay fast food workers if you don’t eat fast food. You aren’t being asked to pay her. You aren’t being asked what benefit you receive from her. She has literally not caused you any harm or even inconvenience whatsoever.
The only thing that is being asked of you is why do you feel you know enough about her, her situation, as well as the intent behind the gift given to her, to pass the judgement that you have.
Maybe the mother should just put on a hair shirt and cover herself in ashes. Would that make people feel better?
I’m starting to be reminded of Jane Eyre, when Jane is in school, and twice the kids got to have bread and cheese for breakfast, instead of the usual porridge, which had been burnt. When the head of the school comes to visit, he lectures the staff, saying burnt porridge was good enough enough for the poor girls, and that spoiling them “bread and cheese” would only damn their souls.
Here you go.
And a lot of people don’t. I have no idea what I would do, since I can’t imagine myself in that situation. But she can do what she wants with the money. I’m not one to judge actions made in desperation by poor people looking for a better life, especially with lack of information to the situation. Maybe pizza was the only thing within walking distance or whatever?
The sad part is, this woman and her kids walked thousands of miles on a hope, and people here say they can’t move one town or state over to find a new job. It’s mind-blowing, really.
No, I have received bonuses too. When I worked for a Wall Street firm, bonuses were often bigger than salaries. The bonus amount was tied to my division’s productivity, true, as well as mine, but the notion that they handed out money out of the goodness of their hearts is not how it was done.
No, that’s not how businesses work in general. I don’t belong to a union. I have to earn my raises.
If I don’t hit my productivity goals, I don’t get a raise. If I hit most of them, I get a standard raise - that is, I get enough of a raise that the purchasing power of my salary doesn’t decrease. Paying me the same isn’t charity either.
If I hit all of my productivity goals, I get a larger raise. That’s how it works in my business and my industry.
At least one of us doesn’t know what you are talking about, and I don’t think it’s me. The company does not forgo profit because they are charitable - they forgo it because of supply and demand. I have experience and a skill set that makes it worthwhile to hire me at my salary level. We have a large offshore facility. If there were people who had my skill set and experience offshore, they could fire me and transfer my job there. They don’t do that, because it is worth it to them to pay me more than someone in India, because I am productive enough to make up the difference in salary. I do the hard stuff, and they send it off to India for QA and testing and verification.
The reason I mentioned that I don’t work for a non-profit is to try to make it clear to you that everyone involved in my job - me, my boss, the directors of the company - is not acting out of charity. The principle is enlightened self-interest. They pay me as much as they do because it is in their interests to have me produce for them. If they could get somebody else who could produce the same for less money, they would hire that person. There are rather few people who can produce more than me - I know their systems pretty well, I know the users pretty well, and I know the skills required very well. It’s not something you can train to do in six months, and I have been doing it for twenty years.
I read the OP and the linked article. I have as much information as you do, and therefore am equally qualified to have an opinion.
Actually, I am better qualified, because I am not naive enough to think that bosses are going to give me money because they feel sorry for me.
Regards,
Shodan
And the point of all of this is that someone decided that you had earned this money. Me, looking at what you accomplished, may not feel as though what you did was worth what they paid you, and so I may say that you didn’t earn it.
My niece graduated recently, and I gave her some money as a graduation present, and I said, “You earned it.” She didn’t have a contract, or productivity goals. I don’t even know what her grades were. But She graduated, she did something noteworthy, and in doing so, she earned a reward.
That you may look at her, and say that her grade weren’t good enough that you don’t think that she earned it is the same as me looking at what you have done at your job, and not seeing what you did that improved the lives of others that earned you that money either.
Would you quit if you made 5% less? If so, then that 5% is charity. You didn’t earn it, as you don’t actually earn anything, you are given a salary to compensate you for not doing something else. If that 5% is not needed to keep you employed, then it’s not earned, and it’s not a part of supply and demand.
I’ve met many excellent employees in my life. None of them were ever paid what they were worth. They were always paid what the company wanted to pay them.
You claim to earn what you are paid. Have you ever walked thousands of miles to improve your family’s life? If you haven’t, then I don’t think that you have earned anything at all. If the person that gave the money to the woman felt that she had earned that money through her efforts of trying to give her family a better life, then why do you think that you have greater right to argue that she didn’t earn that money than I have in saying that you didn’t earn the money you were paid to sit around and punch some buttons?
You have a lot more assumptions. You have assumed that she came from homelessness, which is almost certainly not the case. You are assuming that she has no skills that would benefit the US, which is again, simply an assumption on your part.
That is nice that you are not that naive, and if anyone had made that claim, then you could do a comparison between yourself and that person made of straw.
Okay, final analogy time. This person was not homeless where they came from. They likely had a job, as good a job as you can have in that sort of country, as they paid for their way north, which is not cheap.
So, we’ll try to make something that may let you be in her shoes for an instant, and see if you like being judged.
Your house, and your neighborhood is destroyed by natural disaster. Flood, hurricane, tornado, wildfire, tribbles, whatever. Point is, you lost everything, and all you have now is the clothes on your back.
In a few days, once you have visited various bureaucracies, and started reestablishing your identify, you will have access to all of your money that is in your bank and credit accounts. Right now, you have nothing.
So, FEMA has set up temporary shelters outside your neighborhood, in which you and your family are staying. Someone comes by, sees you and your family being hungry, and hands you $50. Do you feel as though you need to save that money? Do you feel that you should keep that money and use it towards your insurance deductible, or to save it and put it in your children’s college fund? Or do you take that money, and try to show your family a moment of normalcy in a situation where their whole world has been upended?
Yes, you could say that. Not many people would agree that, if I contracted with my employer to do X, Y, and Z, and they agreed to pay me $Z if I did, then they could decide after the fact that I didn’t earn $Z. Of course, if I didn’t do X, Y, or Z, then they wouldn’t have to pay me, and few people would expect them to do so.
Is that how it works in your business? Someone doesn’t show up for work, does a slipshod job when he does, and then expects to be paid the same as everyone else? If that’s the case, then I want you to pay me. I didn’t earn it, but so what?
PM me about the details. Cash only.
It is needed, and therefore is part of supply and demand. If my employer decides not to fulfill my employment contract, then I walk. I also sue - the law of contracts is on my side, and says that people should receive money that they earned.
Again, you are confusing charity with enlightened self-interest. Also, you are thinking that there is some other value for “what they were worth” that is different from “whatever they can convince someone else to pay”.
Of course my employer makes a profit off me. Why else would they hire me? It is exactly because they did not hire me out of charity that I earn what I get paid. They hire me at a given salary, I produce enough to make it worthwhile to keep me. If I produce enough, I get an average raise, if I produce more than enough, I get a larger raise, if I don’t produce, I get fired. So I produce more than enough, everyone is happy, no one gets hurt.
Well, I walk the dog for a couple of miles a day. That kind of mileage adds up - are you going to pay me for it? Why not?
So what? You think people should be given money out of charity, and I didn’t earn my salary. So give me money out of charity.
I dunno - does Domino’s deliver to disaster areas?
Regards,
Shodan
That has nothing to do with what I said. I am just saying that, if I were to see the effort that you put into your work, I may say that I don’t think you don’t earn the salary that you draw, just as you make the judgement that this person that you know nothing about didn’t earn the money that she was given, even if the person who gave it to her did think so.
That’s not even slightly related to what I said. I didn’t say anything about them not paying you what is agreed in your contract, I asked if you were paid 5% less, by contract.
No, not confusion on my part. It’s an analogy, see? What part of that is so hard to understand for you?
And what you are worth is almost certainly very different from what you can convince someone to pay you.
And currently they are giving you, and presumably everyone else with your job description, x% of the revenue that they make from your labors. They don’t have to do that. If they gave you and everyone else x-5% of their revenue, then you’d all be in the same spot, just with less money.
That you think that walking a dog a couple miles a day is at all equivalent to giving up everything you know, traveling an uncertain route and future with the slimmest of chances of making a better life for yourself and your family explains to me more than a bit of what you are missing here.
I do think that you need to get your telepathic powers tweaked, they are failing you today.
They probably deliver to FEMA shelter areas outside of a disaster area, which is where you would be. I am not sure why you would think to order it to your house in this situation.
I’ll take that as a yes, then?
How much is a loaf of bread, a container of milk, a dozen eggs, and/or an apple worth?
Exactly whatever someone is willing to pay for those items.
Labor is the same way.
No “charity” is involved.
If you don’t think I earn my salary, then don’t pay it. My employers disagree with you. And most people, in principle, agree with me that working for a salary is different from receiving charity, as does the law.
Same answer. If my employer didn’t offer me enough to make it worth my while to work here, I wouldn’t work here. Once I start working here, we have further agreed that they give me raises if I hit my goals, and less or none if I don’t. That was the deal when I started, and that is the deal now.
I don’t know if 5% is the exact figure, but it doesn’t matter. If they are offering me 100% of $Z, they aren’t doing it because they are being charitable. They are doing it because of their judgment that $Z is enough to bring me on board, based on the expectation that I will produce enough of X, Y, and Z to make a buck off my work. If they thought they could get me for 95% of $Z, they would have offered that, and then I decide if that’s enough.
No, there you are merely wrong. They are the same thing. Marx’s labor theory of value is horseshit.
Here’s a little analogy back atcha. Nancy Noodnik just graduated from Bumfuck U. with a degree in underwater basket weaving, a C- GPA, and $20K in debt. She can’t find a job in her degree field, but Starbuck’s is hiring. What’s her labor worth?
Yes, they do have to do that. If they don’t, I won’t work here. And if they gave me 100% of the revenue I generate, they wouldn’t hire me, because there is no point in having me around unless I make money for them. That’s what is meant by “enlightened self-interest”.
Nor can we expect much from the charity of employers, nor he from employees.
Unless I, or we, pick up and go to a different spot where someone gives us more money.
I used to work for an employer who thought he could get away with that sort of thing. Used to.
I’m not missing anything. You think she earned $50 by walking a couple thousand miles, and managing her kids along the way. I walk the dog about three miles a day, six to seven days a week, and I got to stop him from chasing off barking at every fricking squirrel he sees. I’ve had the dog for more than six years. That adds up to over 6000 miles. Somebody owes me four hundred fifty bucks.
Or your analogy is wrong, and you don’t earn money by walking unless you can find somebody who wants to hire pedestrians.
Take it whatever way you want. I wasn’t aware that this woman with the pizza habit was awaiting access to her investment accounts and a large insurance settlement, as you say I would be.
That might make a difference in the answer.
Regards,
Shodan
And if you don’t think that this woman earned the money, then don’t pay it.
But if you are going to complain about how she spent it, because you don’t think that she deserves it, then I can complain about how you spend your money, because I don’t think that you deserve it.
You also are not aware that she doesn’t. You have chosen to make that assumption. If it were you on the side of the road, waiting to get into a FEMA shelter, would people know what investments and insurance you have? Or would they be judging you, the same way you judge people who you like to think aren’t as good as you.
Note that you continue to act dismissive and insulting towards her, with your “pizza habit” quip. One more thing that you don’t know about her but feel free to comment upon. For all you know, she’s had and shared 3 pizzas in her entire life. But, you go ahead and make your unsupported assumptions about other people, that’s just what you do, and if it helps your personal self worth to put down this woman, it’s not as if you are actually able to cause her any harm.
Sure you can, just like I can. And I can explain my reasons, which make sense, and you can explain yours, which don’t.
Oh come on now.
Fun’s fun, but if you are going to pretend that she’s actually got money coming to her you are going to have to explain why she walked a thousand miles to get pizza. She’s never heard of delivery?
Regards,
Shodan
Did you not read the article?
She was threatened with death by local gangs. She wasn’t just going out for pizza.
Shodan, IIRC, don’t you call yourself a Christian?