[[Do people’s gullibility stem from the relationship to vaccines? I mean, after all, a vaccine is a diluted strand of the germs causing the disease, right? So the dilution gives some immunity?]]
Some people who support homeopathy seem to believe that homeopathic “medicine” was a precursor to immunization. In fact - except for in the most simplistic sense - they have practically nothing in common. Immunization works. Homeopathy doesn’t.
Jill
wparker writes:
That’s very disingenuous, wp. If you didn’t harbor at least some vague suspicion that something would work, you wouldn’t have taken it!
The placebo effect is far more subtle and complex – as well as far more ubiquitous – than you think!
Ma Huang/Ephedra contains ephedrine. Sudafed contains pseudoephedrine which is a stereoisomer (I forget whether it’s an ordinary stereoisomer or if it’s a diastereoisomer). The difference between them is in the configuration of the amine group. Both compounds exert a stimulatory effect on the central nervous system (CNS), and both have peripheral effects within the peripheral nervous system (PNS) such as drying out the mucous membranes- which is the basis of their status as cold remedies. Ephedrine has less of a PNS and more of a CNS effect than does pseudoephedrine, which is why ephedrine is sold at truck stops to keep truckers awake, and pseudoephedrine (Sudafed) is sold as the cold remedy. (Not that pseudoephedrine can’t get you all jumpy and wired- believe me, it sure can if you take enough!)
There seems to be a common misconception among the proponents of alternative medicine that the "medical establishment" and the "giant pharmaceutical companies" are simply unwilling to concede that plants contain pharmaceutically active compounds in them. Which is silly, especially when you consider that pharmaceutical companies are always teasing new drugs from all kinds of plants around the world. But while plants may indeed be "all-natural", the problem is that they don't supply a fixed, certain dosage of pharmaceutically active material, they often contain unknown amounts of other alkaloids which aren't as researched, they don't come with warning labels, and they are unregulated.
For example, there are a lot of prescription and nonprescription drugs that have warnings on their labels: “Do not take this medication along with an MAO inhibitor”. Now “MAO” is monoamine oxidase- it is a “cleanup” enzyme within the CNS and PNS that inactivates stray neurotransmitters that have leaked away from their synapses. MAO inhibitors were the first class of medications that were found to be useful in combatting depression. (As an historical footnote, there is an interesting story here. The first MAO inhibitors were imperfect, and suppressed not only “brain MAO”, which is used in the CNS- thus treating depression, but also “body MAO”, which is used by the PNS, and which should not be monkeyed with. Patients taking these first drugs suddenly had their cloud of depression lifted. A few of them got really happy, and decided to throw themselves little parties with their friends, complete with wine and cheese. Both wine and cheese contain tyramine. As a result of their body MAO being inhibited, the tyramine killed them. This was known as the “wine and cheese” effect. It was eliminated when CNS-specific MAO inhibitors were developed.)
The MAO inhibitors were succeeded by later classes of antidepressants such as the tricyclics, and after that, Prozac and the other SSRIs. Now they are rarely used. They are considered the antidepressant of last resort because of their side effects. In fact, if you are taking an MAO inhibitor, there are many drugs that you shouldn’t take since they may induce seizures or cause other neurological complications.
But you can buy Saint John’s Wort without a prescription. The label says that the St. John’s Wort herbal tablets are a “dietary supplement”. What they don’t say is that Saint John’s Wort is an MAO inhibitor.
“Who are all you people, and how did you get in my computer?”
Homeopathy is a recognized and widely used discipline in Europe. I know that relaying my personal experiences will cause people to say, “Well, you believed it would work, so it did.” Uh huh. So why not just believe you don’t have the ailment in the first place?
I developed a lymph node infection and was treated by a naturopath with homeopathic and herbal medicines. The infection was completely gone in three days. Pretty damned impressive to me. I use the phone a lot in my work, and use a homeopathic remedy to combat my occasional bouts of laryngitis. They work, and I don’t care why or how.
The placebo effect is well established.
Homeopathy is based on magic, pure and simple. You want to believe that all your ails can be fixed by magic, go right ahead. Sooner or later, you’ll be a candidate for the Darwin award.
John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams
[[I developed a lymph node infection and was treated by a naturopath with homeopathic and herbal medicines.]]
“And” being a rather important word there (the second one, not the first). . .
[[The infection was completely gone in three days. Pretty damned impressive to me.]]
How long would it have taken for the infection to go away without treatment?
[[I use the phone a lot in my work, and use a homeopathic remedy to combat my occasional bouts of laryngitis. They work, and I don’t care why or how.]]
I’m guessing that the box says something about “resting the voice as much as possible” as well, but I could be wrong. . .
Rich
I dropped a brick on my foot when I had a headache, and the next day, my headache was gone! The brick must have cured me!
StormBorn wrote:
So is dowsing for E-rays.
[[The placebo effect is well established.]]
Yes, and I find it fascinating, since it demonstrates that the body in many cases possesses the ability to heal itself. I think the “placebo effect” is itself an amazing thing that needs much more study.
VegForLife asks:
Oh, about 72 hours. 
Dr. Dean Edell quotes Penn & Teller (pretty funny, eh?) about alternative medicine in his new book, Eat, Drink, & Be Merry: “I understand that it seemed to work for your headache, but who was your control group?” and "Every malady does one of three things if left untreated:
After trying any bogus treatment:
“A woman came up to me and said ‘I’d like to poison your mind with wrong ideas that appeal to you though I am not unkind’” – They Might Be Giants, “Whistling in the Dark”
I do think the so-called “alternative therapies” have their place, but that place is not really as an alternative to “traditional” medicine. Rather, certain ones might be used to supplement or enhance the effects of traditional therapy, whether that be surgery or medication or whatever.
For instance, I occasionally get RSI pains in my wrists, from typing a lot. When this happens I leave the computer, I take some aspirin, and sometimes I tape magnets to the pulse points in my wrists. Maybe the magnets don’t do anything physically, but they seem to help eliminate the pain, and I appreciate that whether it’s the placebo effect or not.
Of course, a magnet is a very benign example; whether it helps or not, it’s unlikely to cause any additional harm. The same cannot be said for certain herbs, like the St. Johns Wort mentioned above. But if something can be shown to not be harmful, and it makes the patient feel better, I don’t see a reason why it shouldn’t be tried.
Yes, but that doesn’t help advance the cause of science any. Same with your statement about trying anything if it’s not harmful.
For one thing, there are other “harms” besides medical – like monetary. Maybe your magnets didn’t cost very much, but I know people who spend $50 a week or more on homeopathic remedies that are essentially water. Is it going to hurt? Not health-wise, but money-wise, yes.
But getting back to the science issue. If it’s the placebo effect, then we need to know that to study it. Wouldn’t it be much better to learn how to use that affect to help people rather than continuing to have them rely on nonsense that they think is helping them?
[[I do think the so-called “alternative therapies” have their place, but that place is not really as an alternative to “traditional” medicine. Rather, certain ones might be used to supplement or enhance the effects of traditional therapy, whether that be surgery or medication or whatever.]]
That’s why the correct term, in this instance, is “complementary therapy.”
IMNSHO, the term “complementary medicine” was only invented to get away from the stigma of “alternative medicine.” The new in-vogue term is “integrative medicine,” because people started figuring out that “complementary” and “alternative” were the same thing. Now Andrew Weil, one of the gurus of the alt. med. movement is trying to change terminology again when it comes to anecdotal reports (see the Great Debates thread on Discover magazine and Andrew Weil that I just started a few minutes ago).
It’s kind of like the creationists who stopped using the oxymoronic term, “creation science” and started calling it “intelligent design theory” as a way to try to sneak it into schools.
[[For instance, I occasionally get RSI pains in my wrists, from typing a lot. When this
happens I leave the computer, I take some aspirin, and sometimes I tape magnets to the
pulse points in my wrists. Maybe the magnets don’t do anything physically, but they seem
to help eliminate the pain]] AuraSeer
Do they? Or is it the fact that you left the computer? Or is it the aspirin that you took? Or is it the additive effect of leaving the computer and taking the aspirin? Or of leaving the computer and taping on the magnets? Or of the aspirin and taping on the magnets? Or of leaving the computer, taking the aspirin, and taping on the magnets?
See, the anecdotal evidence that you gave isn’t evidence of anything other than the fact that your pain decreased. Try this next time you experience RSI pain: keep typing, don’t take any aspirin, and tape on some magnets. I can all but guarantee that there will be no decrease in the level of pain that you are experiencing (the only reason I can’t guarantee it is that the act of taping on the magnets itself could have some slight impact, such as how you subsequently hold your hands due to the added bulk, as well as how tightly you tape them on, which could have an impact on the muscles, nerves and tendons in the area).
As David pointed out, physical damage is only one possible side effect of bogus “therapies.” Financial damage is another, as noted, as is emotional damage. Just ask anyone who has seen a relative throw thousands at alternative approaches to cancer, whether combined with traditional approaches or not, only to see the disease take them anyway.
Rich
Good thread. Down with pseudoscience!
Hey, Lawrence, don’t know pseudoscience… without astrology, tarot readings, and creationism, where would get our laughs?
[[The new in-vogue term is “integrative medicine,” because people started figuring out that “complementary” and “alternative” were the same thing.]]
I don’t agree that alternative and complementary mean the same thing. “Alternative” means “instead of” and implies using drugs or herbs other than the ones generally proven to work or prescribed by your doctor. “Complementary” means “used along with” such drugs. These are different philosophies.
Jill
Jill, I know the words themselves don’t mean the same thing. I’m talking about the methods and the science behind them. Whether you use homeopathy, for example, instead of actual medicine or alongside it, homeopathy itself remains medicinally worthless. That’s what I was talking about when I said they were the same thing. And I still stick by my premise that the term “complementary” started to be used more because “alternative” had gotten somewhat of a bad name than because of any precision of word meaning, though that may have played some part in it.
>>Just ask anyone who has seen a relative throw thousands at alternative approaches to cancer, whether combined with traditional approaches or not, only to see the disease take them anyway.<<
People spend a lot on chemo and die anyway. We can only conclude that chemotherapy is not effective.
Medicine has some pretty serious methodological problems.
[[Jill, I know the words themselves don’t mean the same thing. I’m talking about the methods and the science behind them. Whether you use homeopathy, for example, instead of actual medicine or alongside it, homeopathy itself remains medicinally worthless. That’s what I was talking about when I said they were the same thing. And I still stick by my premise that the term “complementary” started to be used more because “alternative” had gotten somewhat of a bad name than because of any precision of word meaning, though that may have played some
part in it.]]
Ah, okay, I see what you mean, and I agree with you. It’s the term “medicine” here that’s really questionable, then. I review medical records of people with HIV, and I see first hand what happens when one uses “alternative medicine” as opposed to combination therapies including antiretrovirals and protease inhibitors. Their viral loads go up and their white blood cell counts go down. Almost invariably. The fact, too, is that there is no Physician’s Desk Reference to tell doctors what undesirable side effects can be had from using “complimentary medicines” along with these proven AIDS drugs. It’s hard to tell someone with a chronic, incurable disease not to try herbs along with their other meds, if even for the placebo effect, though.