Jia Baoyu, protagonist of Dream of the Red Chamber. Ah, if you read it you’d know what I’m talking about.
As for John Lithgow, I admit I also thought he was gay. Just from hearing him exclaim to the Big Giant Head: "The same thing happened to meeeee!!!
Another data point: here in Taiwan, I also know one or two females who (I know for a fact) don’t have any problem with gay guys per se–one of them has a close cousin who is gay–but they say they really dislike what they describe as “sissy” behavior among guys, either gay or straight. :dubious: So gayness appears to be OK, as long as you’re not a sissy about it.
Last Friday, me and a couple of (straight male) friends came to the conclusion that gay guys are actually very good for society - since they reduce the competition on the market
Lesbians, otoh, mess up the competition and are thus bad.
(why yes, this discussion was had after “a few” beers).
I’m afraid I have nothing to add regarding women and their sentiments towards gays.
If you mean just as himself, out of character, I don’t know. I haven’t seen him in a long time, and I’ve really only seen a few of his movies. Apart from the transsexual in Garp, he seems to play mostly standard supporting actor type roles. Is it his looks? That he doesn’t have a rugged Bruce Willis persona? Geeze, we’re not all expected to be Bruce Willis, are we?
I’m not saying that obvious examples like Richard Simmons and Liberace don’t seem gay to me too. But it seems a little odd to me that when people start assuming the same thing about any male who strays from a narrow and demanding definition of heterosexual manliness.
Perhaps the worst example of that I ever saw was here a few years ago, when one of the the gay members here posted that when he came out to his mother, she said she’d always suspected, because…
Wait for it…
HE LIKED TO READ BOOKS!
Instead of playing football or hunting moose, I suppose.
There’s probably a different dynamic to the phobia for mean and women. Men tend to respond to it either as an affront to machoism in general or as a personal threat (he might hit on me!) or as a by product of natural empathy (imagining myself doing that is icky! therefore I must hate those who enjoy doing it). Women tend to respond to it more on a religious/family level (the bible tells me it’s wrong or my nice son won’t have a nice wedding for me to look forward to or grandchildren) or sometimes younger women will be put off by more “feminine acting” men who are “bitchy” in the same way they’ll be put off by other women they don’t like.
Just as there are white people who hold no animosity towards Blacks but reserve the right to tell racist jokes all in the name of good fun, so there are straight women who have nothing against gay men, but still don’t want to relinquish fag-bashing from their arsenal against any man who angers or disappoints them. As long as men play along by equating homosexuality with compromised masculinity, it works.
There’s also a certain degree of insult to women in the TVs (transvestites) who act with over-the-top effeminance. It’s an implication that such outrageous behavior would not be acceptable in a man, but it’s fine if it’s only a woman. I found myself feeling that way as a woman watching The Birdcage. I was ready to slap Nathan Lane silly, yelling “Control yourself!” in his face. I know TVs aren’t the same as homosexuals, but there’s some degree of overlap there, and a lot of people, men and women, don’t know that they aren’t the same thing.
I think I can understand where you’re coming from, although to each her own I suppose. My wife loves The Birdcage, and it’s pretty hilarious where Nathan Lane tries to act straight.
Another celebrity example is Johnny Depp. I’ve heard people wonder about his orientation, and it’s another one I don’t get, really. He’s not physically impressive enough? Or he wears glasses and hats? He just seems a bit of an oddball to me, but not in a way that makes me think, “ah HAH!! Gay as the day is long!”
In a similar vein, we watched Edward Scissorhands some time ago, and the presenter mentioned that another famous actor had been approached to do the title role, but declined because the Scissorhands character was too effeminate. Again, to me he just seemed very unusual, and hence perfect for Depp, but not particularly effeminate.
I dont think their dislike has anything to do with with the guys gayness. They dislike the flamboyant sissyness. Which I can some what agree with. The over-the-top flamboyantness bothers me to no end, whether from a straight/gay man/woman/dog/cat. I have no problem with a persons sexuality but anyone with an “over-the-top-flamboyant-theatrical” personality bugs me.
