We’re discussing Paul Ryan’s comment, right? His brief comment explicitly endorsed Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve.
Lance, Is The Bell Curve an exposition of treating people as individuals, not by race?
No, that’s not white privilege.
That’s some people opposing efforts to end racial discrimination.
No. I won’t let you know. You tell me what your specific proposals are for leveling it, and how you justify them. They are not automatically justified simply because they are intended to level the playing field. And those who oppose it are not automatically defending their “white privilege” either.
LOL. Such a big difference.
You think Ryan could use that one? He could just say “I was talking about blackness, not black people.”
But you should REJECT any names that are unfair or misleading! You shouldn’t just go along with them, especially when they are politically charged.
People try to bend the terms to their advantage all the time. “Pro-life” is one example. The struggle between the terms “illegal alien” and “undocumented person” is another.
We should not just go along with it - and we aren’t required to. We can and should define our own terms and not just let others do it for us. We should insist on clear, fair, neutral terms and use them.
Okay, perhaps. But the solution to that problem, if it exists, is not to presume that whites are guilty, it’s to presume that non-whites are innocent. Don’t you agree?
That’s a completely fair statement. And I have observed all of these when I piss people off, and also when people piss me off.
I didn’t say Ryan’s comment wasn’t racist. I said anything Ryan says shouldn’t be presumed to be racist until a good case is made that it is. And that shouldn’t be controversial at all.
Drop it, lance. Drop it once and for all.
You’re doing it wrong.
Lance, you are totally right, in every respect and in all particulars. We are in unanimous and universal agreement that you are, without question, the most cogent and correct poster on this or any message board. We are not worthy.
No.
I have an opinion, and I think I’m right, and if all you can think to say is “drop it,” then I’d say you’re running out of ideas.
You can drop it if you want.
I will let septimus respond to my post to him. I think he understands what I’m saying. If you don’t like the discussion, kindly stay out of it.
I didn’t say that. Nice straw man.
Why is it that you can’t handle someone disagreeing with you? Why is it that you think disagreeing with you is somehow arrogant? I’d say that makes you the arrogant one - you think your views can’t possibly be wrong and shouldn’t be questioned.
It was worth a shot.
You’re going to have to, you know, use logic and rational discussion and stuff instead.
I meant this incredible, inexplicable sensitivity you have to accusations of racism which you hammer into hijacks in thread after thread after thread. Drop that once and for all.
Except that he was talking about people – “inner city” people, which has been used in the past as code for black people. “Whiteness” and “blackness” are not people – they are cultural concepts.
I don’t find them unfair or misleading. “Whiteness” describes a real cultural concept – one that we should work hard to eliminate, but that would be much harder to eliminate if it wasn’t recognized (and named).
Fine – I insist on the clear, fair, and neutral term “whiteness” to describe the cultural concept being discussed. And luckily, it’s already defined and has been in use for decades.
That might be one way to approach that problem, and would definitely be an improvement. Those assumptions are part your favorite cultural concept of “whiteness”.
You’re not pissing me off, but I do think your argument about “whiteness” comes down to just whining about a cultural concept that you didn’t (and perhaps still don’t) understand and/or recognize. Though you seem to have acknowledged the existence of every example mentioned so far of the ramifications of “whiteness”, which makes it difficult for me to understand why you have such a problem with naming and recognizing the concept.
You may think that racism is no big deal, but I don’t.
And I think that false accusations of racism are just as bad as racism itself. That’s because 1) I think racism is very evil, so it’s quite a serious accusation and 2) false accusations of racism only hurt things by making people take real accusations of racism less seriously.*
So no, I won’t.
*“False” meaning “without good evidence,” not just erroneous.
No, it is the only just way to approach the problem.
No, they are fundamental principles of both ethics and our system of justice. And they are shared by blacks and other races.
Ask any black person if he/she believes in “innocent until proven guilty.”
Then feel free to explain.
You don’t see the difference? I can complain about an unfair label applied to a real concept.
But if Ryan used the term, you wouldn’t defend it as a “cultural concept,” would you? No, you’d scream racism!
But calling a cultural concept “whiteness” is unfair because it presumes that all whites fall under it or even support it. I shouldn’t even have to explain why a culture named for a race isn’t fair.
It is not fair nor neutral.
You’re still doing it. Being defined and used for decades doesn’t make a term fair or neutral. By that logic, we couldn’t question racial slurs, for instance.
That’s an opinion that I don’t share. If someone says “blacks are dumb” (for example), I see no need to assume some sort of innocent explanation, like he/she was talking about a rugby team. It’s possible, sure, but I feel no moral obligation to give everyone, at any time, the benefit of the doubt.
I wasn’t talking about those assumptions, I was talking about the assumptions in the cultural concept of “whiteness” about white and black people.
Done (in a simplified/my language way) in this post.
So you just don’t like the name? Fine. From now on, when I discuss that cultural concept with you, I will call it “the cultural concept formerly known as ‘whiteness’”.
Let me explain this in political terms, if that’s all you happen to care about. I’m speaking in general terms, not specifically about what Ryan or anyone else said.
When liberals yell “racism!” at every little thing conservatives say, no matter how shaky the case, people stop listening to liberals and they stop listening to complaints about racism. They roll their eyes.
This hurts liberals, and it hurts victims of real racism, because people stop listening. They doubt our credibility. It’s the story of the boy who cried wolf.
So when I stick up for people accused of racism and demand good evidence and all that, I’m fighting racism.
Why would you try to put words in my mouth? If he was talking about a cultural concept, it would be totally different than talking about people.
I don’t think it presumes that all whites fall under or support it. And it’s not a culture – it’s a cultural concept. It’s not named for a race so much as related to race and historically racist treatment of various peoples, but as I’ve said before, I’m happy to use “cultural concept formerly known as ‘whiteness’” when I discuss it with you, if that would stop your whining about the name.
Says you, but I’m happy to use “cultural concept formerly known as ‘whiteness’”. Just to make you happy.
I am talking about a cultural concept, not a slur. Slurs should never be used, no matter what their names are, while cultural concepts are real and reasonable topics of discussion. It just so happens that the concept I’m talking about already has a name, but I’m happy to use a different one when discussing it with you.