During the last several months, I have tried to revive my understanding of the Christian religion… I have read many books, some of which I found cited or referred to in “Great Debates”. I tried a post to see if members would help me with the fact that God seems, in modern times, to be more destructive than helpful. Tell me the last time that you think that God showed his beneficent and miraculous facet. If you know of an incident, does it compare to the many disasters that must have emanated from an omnipotent and omnipresent God?
My concern in this posting is prayer. I do not understand why today’s Christians believe that it is appropriate to pray for another. Without this prayer, does God not know about this other or that others woes? Does God wait for another to seek his intervention? Where in the Bible does it suggest that our prayers for another are needed or helpful? Should the prayer be: “Dear God it seems that you have neglected your job. X suffers terribly and I here intervene on behalf of X. Get it right, I pray. Enough of your screwing up. Amen.”
There was a myth that such prayers helped, but a recent study shows that to be false.
In the Bible, when asked how we should pray, Jesus tells us to pray the “Lords Prayer”. The prayer does not refer to individuals, but the collective. Who decided that we should do more or differently? Are prayers the wares of the ministry? {When I heard the prayer of the Senate Chaplain, today, I became convinced that they are the wares of the ministry.}
the political climate is understandable. Born agains get to vote twice.
In truth this prayer thing gets to be a joke. Boxers thanking god after they tear a mans head off. Praying before fights and football games. God apparently is not busy and oversees every athletic event on earth.
Would you be terribly put-out and offended if I directed you first to my post on another thread?
Please note where I discuss how institutionalized religion has acted as a kind of “vaccination” against actual prayer, which in turn provides a mechanism for individuals to transcend the groupthink of the society into which they are woven.
Now let me pause and, if not quite apologize, stand back a bit from that assertion. I didn’t mean that the participants in organized religion are somehow evil Archons or Borg-members, twirling their moustaches and snickering as they lure the would-be religious into what is really just another version of groupthink (and, in fact, a powerful and effective mechanism for passing along groupthink, as various sociologists have noted).
Instead, let us consider the charismatic Christians. Just based on the content of what they say, I think they had a breakaway leader, a non-groupthink person, a person who did genuine prayers and got genuine answers. The content is still remarkably fresh and spicy in the phrasing. This person was saying: You sheep! It’s not good enough to go to church and be part of the congregation and ‘do the right thing’, there is a genuine spirituality and it is *alive *, it is not a sequence of droning prayers and canned beliefs you’re supposed to espose, c’mon, speak directly with God, it’s like being born again, it’s gonna change your life, it will be the most electrifying event in your life I promise you that! It has to matter to you, you have to care, you have to seek God with all your heart!
A century-and-change later (if my sense of when the movement took off is correct), it’s as canned and dead and stuffed and mounted as any other institutionalized religion:
“I need to come up with a time when I can say I was ‘born again’, it’s important, everyone has to have one of those, we ‘testify’ to that” — my sister (unfortunately <sigh…>)
“No, you’re using the wrong words! Jesus won’t let you in unless you do it right! It goes like this, I know my preacher told me when I was 11 but you wouldn’t know if you weren’t in a congretation lit bh the holy spirit, but what you say is ‘I renounce the devil and accept Jesus Christ into my heart as my personal Lord and Savior’. Now you say it…” —19 year old acquaintance
My suspicion is that the visionary person who tried to bring this message 120-140 years ago to people would throw up if he saw this mess now. Of course, I think Jesus of Nazareth would do likewise.
There are no recipes. And if you ever get there yourself, carry content back if you get content but don’t bother trying to get everyone where they can see for themselves. The results have never been good. You either get ignored (or worse than ignored) or you catch on and then they institutionalize what you said. They can’t help it. The fire that catches is the enthusiasm and the confidence. The vantage point itself? Not contagious. Sorry.
FYI, if the bible is to be believed, it is true that Jesus taught people to pray as you suggest. However, it is also true that Jesus taught people to pray for anything they want. Jesus then promised to do anything they prayers asked for. Of course Jesus doing anything we ask is decidedly and demonstrably false, and proves that Jesus and/or the words attributed to him can’t be trusted. Beyond my digression, it also indicates that the concept of individuals praying for selfish aims was not a later invention of the ministry but stems right back to the gospel, written in red.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” John 14:12-14
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy man be full.” John 16: 23-24
“Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 18:19
“And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” Matthew 21:22
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matthew 7: 7-8
Wisdom is as light and its source shineth of its own accord.
If someone feels the need to shout “Lo, look, yonder, it’s WISDOM”, and then insists you take some authority in lieu of seeing and assessing same for yourself, you can be pretty sure that it’s not likely that anything meaningful is there. (To be sure, you should still look for yourself, nevertheless, for presumably obvious reasons)
I’ll begin by pointing out that I’m no theologian, just a believer.
My interpretation is that “in my [Jesus’s] name” is a key phrase in this and the following selection. I would say that prayer’s offered up along the lines of, “Lord, let my life work to serve Christ on Earth” would be prayers in Jesus’s name, whereas “Lord, let Notre Dame cover the spread” wouldn’t. What I mean is that I believe Jesus is saying is that all true prayer is prayer intended to serve God, and that wish-fulfillment (even for good causes) does not qualify.
See above.
I must admit I don’t understand what this means. The word “touching” is throwing me off. So I don’t really have anything to say about it.
In context (KJV):
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
This passage is generally interpreted as being about the lack of faith among Christ’s followers. The message is not that God will do anything we pray for, but rather that our faith is not complete, and that we all harbor doubts.
This passage was the only one I immediately recognized. (One of my many faults is that I do not read the Bible nearly as much as I should. But this verse is a famous one.) I’ve always read it as “anyone who truly wants to find Christ will. All one must do is open one’s heart.” I’ve never heard it interpreted any other way, actually.
Again, I in no way claim to speak for all Christians or even a particular brand of Christianity. Your mileage may vary. These statements or claims have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. No part of this broadcast may be disseminated without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.
I already looked freakin’ upthread and I don’t see anything there, or in the post you linked, that supports your claim that Jesus approves of skepticism. I can think of a few instances where Jesus specifically approved of believing without seeing, which to me seems like the exact opposite of being skeptical.
What part of “If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not; But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him” do you fail to understand?
Mayo, if I may be so bold, you’re just rationalizing. Jesus clearly says if you believe in him and ask him to do things “any thing” he will do it for you. You know this isn’t true, so you bending over backwards in order to interpret what’s written so that what Jesus said doesn’t count. I know this allows you to maintain that Jesus wasn’t wrong and allows you to maintain that some of your most cherished beliefs aren’t in error. Well, Jesus was wrong, and your beliefs are in error. Sorry.
Ahhh no, prayers along the lines of, “Lord, let my life work to serve Christ on Earth” are conveniently unfalsifiable, hence it’s appeal to you and other Christians. Prayers like your Notre Dame example, world peace, or curing people from paralysis are inconveniently falsifiable, hence you know better than to pray for them.
As a professed Christian, that’s kind of a big fault isn’t it? Perhaps if you were more familiar with the bible you would no better than to believe in it.
BTW Mayo, do you worship any other genocidal deities, or just the god of the bible?
That’s not bad Ahunter3. I’m curious why when I asked you for a cite, you didn’t just post this verse instead made up some story about the cite being written above, when it clearly isn’t. What would Jesus say about bearing false witness?
The verse you quote is otherwise convenient. It shows that we should not believe in Jesus if he can not demonstrate lordly works. So riddle me this. If Jesus says he will answer prayers and makes other objectively verifiable claims, that turn out to be demonstrably false, should we believe him divine or not?
I’m not rationalizing. I’m giving you my interpretation of what the verses you quoted. I’m not looking for a definition that helps my argument, I’m simply giving you the definitions as I understand them. I thought you might be interested in them. Instead, you appear to be more interested in telling me why I believe the things I believe and telling me that my interpretations aren’t right because the verses so clearly mean what you say they mean.
I’m glad that you know why a line of thinking appeals to me. I told you that I don’t think that prayers requesting specific outcomes are true prayers in Jesus’s name. That’s what I believe. I might be wrong. But you can’t tell me that I only believe something because it is “convenient.” You don’t know me, so how can you claim to know the inner workings of my mind? It’s rather presumptuous.
As I freely admitted, my failure to read the Bible more regularly is a big fault. I called it “one of my many faults.” And for your information, (not that it’s any of your damned business) that’s one of the fault’s I’ve been working the hardest to fix. But it’s a big ass book, and I haven’t read it cover to cover yet. But what I have read has done nothing to dissuade my belief. To the contrary, it has strengthened it. But nothing, including the Bible, has shaped my faith more than my personal relationship with God. If you don’t believe He exists, I can respect that. I’ve been there. And you don’t see me insulting you for your religious beliefs or lack thereof. I’d ask that you return the favor, but I won’t be holding my breath.
The rules of this forum do not allow me to answer this question the way I would like to.
I see God’s beneficience every day. To quote (of all people) poker player Steve Dannenman, “Every morning I get up. The rest is extra credit.” There are other amazing things in this world. A child born today has a good chance to live to be 80 years old. To my way of thinking, that “makes up for” the people who die from terrorism, natural disasters, murders, etc.
My belief (which is not shared by many) is that prayers like “please help [whoever] get over [whatever]” are not for God to hear, but rather for the comfort of the one praying and the comfort of one who knows that they’re being prayed for. Of course God knows the situation.
I agree that they don’t always help, (in a physical sense) but I feel emotionally and spiritually better after I pray, and I feel better when I know that others are praying for me.
To me, the purpose of the Lord’s Prayer is to illustrate that we should pray for personal betterment and the glory of God. I believe that these sort of prayers are “true” prayers. But the other sort of prayer is seen very early on in the Old Testament, so it predates the Lord’s Prayer.
You are reading said verses, and no doubt many others in ways other than they are written so that they are more pleasing to you. That’s rationalizing. You would be honest to admit it.
I’m not the one saying verses mean things other than what they say. I’m just saying they say what they say.
Ever heard of the True Scotsman’s Fallacy? Jesus did say he would do anything you ask, and gave no exceptions. Your exceptions, that don’t qualify as “true prayers” are not in the words of Jesus. I don’t think you should even call what you are doing “interpreting” when “making stuff up” would be a better descriptor.
I can be a presumptuous as I wish. And yes I think I know to a large degree the inner workings or peoples minds as they relate to many things, religions in particular.
It’s funny that you believe in it without having read it.
That’s because you rationalize.
No I just see you professing your worship and adulation for a creature who plans to cast me and most of humanity into a lake of fire. Yet you’re angry at me for what you describe as mere insults. Where do you get off?
The god you worship is genocidal isn’t he? Or have you not yet read those many parts of the bible where genocide is wantonly committed and/or encouraged by this god of yours.
badchad:
You continue to insist that you know why I believe the things I believe, despite the fact that you do not know me. You continue to insist that any interpretation of the verses you mentioned other than the interpretation you provide is implausible. You continue to insult me and my religious beliefs, although I have shown respect for your opinions and beliefs. Therefore, I have no interest in continuing our discussion.