My kitchen are has two sets of lights: one set over the kitchen itself, and the other over the outer counter area. Right now they’re on totally different switches. However, what I’d like is for the counter lights to be controlled by both switches. When the main switch is on, then I want both sets of lights to be on. When the other switch is on, I want the counter lights to be on. Only when both switches are off do I want the counter lights to be off.
I can pretty much puzzle out how to do this in terms of the circuit, but are there some standards that I should be following? And is there a name for this kind of thing (I know how 3-way switches work, and this isn’t that)? Should I just not do it because it’ll confuse whoever looks at the wiring next? Thanks.
You don’t specify if there are any 3-way switches or any dimmers in your setup right now, and if you want any dimmers in your future setup. You also don’t say if the current switches are right next to each other physically and if all the lights are on the same circuit breaker.
The following may be a bit of a hijack, but it’s my suggestion.
You should look into smart switches such as Belkin WeMo. These are simple push-button switches that you can program, including time-of-day, sunset, etc., and that also allow remote control from a Starbucks on the next continent (which I have yet to find a use for). I don’t know about other brands, but WeMo switches require that you have access to both the neutral and live wires in each electrical box, and also require Wi-Fi in the house and some iOS or Android device for the initial programming. They don’t have dimmers.
The key part is that you can set up conditions between the WeMo devices. You can set them up so that pushing one activates the other but not vice versa, which I guess could accomplish what you’re trying to do, without redoing the wiring.
You can certainly wire your switches in series to achieve what you want, but I have no idea if it will meet code. Regardless, it sounds like a rather terrible user interface design. But I’m also a guy who thinks all three-way switches should be launched into the sun.
Nope, neither one, nor do I care about having dimmers. The counter lights have a colored glass cylinder over them and I’ve chosen the bulbs to make for good “mood lighting”, which is why I want separate control, but they also come in handy for food preparation.
I’ll look into the Belkin stuff. My only experience with home automation was with X10 back in the day and I certainly don’t want a repeat of that, but I know things have evolved a lot since then. That said, I don’t mind redoing the wiring as long as I can do it cleanly. The switches are on different walls but I have easy attic access and can run more wiring if necessary.
Wouldn’t the switches have to be in parallel to achieve this? I’m confused. Surely you need to have an either/or pathway to the counter lights in order to have them work as requested.
Assuming all these lights are on the same circuit breaker, I guess you could use a 2-pole (DPST) switch like these for the “kitchen” switch. One contact would control the main kitchen lights, the other contact would be parallel with the SPST “counter” switch at the other end of the room. I have no idea if this is legal, but I don’t see a technical problem with that.
Or you could just rewire the “counter” lights to use 3-way switches and put one of them directly next to your existing “kitchen” switch. Then you just use two fingers instead of one when turning on the “kitchen” lights, and the building inspectors and firefighters remain relatively happy.
Ultimately what you’re looking for creates a situation where, if the main switch is on, the second switch can be switched on and off without affecting the counter lights. That’s weird, since the second switch affects the counter lights when the main switch is off. You can’t really have it both ways, when the switch is thrown, it connects your light to the power source, regardless of what other sources of power are available to the light.
have a single pole switch that feeds the kitchen light and a single pole switch for the counter lights.
leave the counter light switch in the ON position. the kitchen light switch will then turn both lights on. turn the counter light switch OFF when you don’t want the counter lights.
If I read this right, the OP will need to get funky with relays or WeMo.
Two switches - one for the mood lights, one for the room lights. The switches control the relays in a simple on/off setup.
Three relays - one for the room lights, two for the mood lights. The two for the mood lights are in parallel, so flipping either switch on will turn on a mood light relay. Using relays isolates the action of either switch.
Alternately, run another wire to the room light switch location, add a switch for the mood lights and wire it in parallel with the existing mood light switch. Write a note on the back of the switch plates that the switch is in parallel with another or some future homeowner or electrician will spend half a day trying to figure out the crazy wiring.
No need for anything as crazy as that. The wiring I had in mind was actually pretty simple. I replace the existing counter light switch with a 3-way (SPDT). The output goes to the counter lights. The “on” input is an ordinary hot. The “off” input comes from the switched kitchen lights. So, when the switch is on, the counter lights are on no matter what, and when the switch is off they are controlled with the kitchen lights.
That said, I’m almost convinced that this is a bad idea for code and future-homeowner reasons. Unfortunately, relocating the switch is kinda annoying, since the existing kitchen lights are on a 3-gang plate. Shoving a double switch onto that would be pretty hideous, and unless I redo the drywall I can’t do a doubled-up 2-gang.
But 3-ways are awesome! It’s an XOR operation. Who doesn’t love Boolean operations on their lighting? In fact, it makes it trivial to express my original request:
I was reading the Wiki page on Multiway switching, and it mentions this regarding the so-called California 3-way:
When wired correctly, the alternative system does not pose an electrical code violation, since the ground and neutral conductors are never switched or interrupted.
The implication here is that as long as I don’t try to get clever with switching neutrals, there’s no code violation (assuming I do everything else right, yadda yadda). That’s in contrast to the Carter system, which switches the neutral and has been prohibited for almost a century. My proposed setup only switches hots and so there’s no problem in that regard.
Just reanimating this thread to rescind my previous endorsement of Belkin WeMo. Both my WeMo light switches have become utterly unusable now, possibly because of a change in my home Wi-Fi setup. (Even reversing the change doesn’t bring them back.) And I am reading similar horror stories all over the Net, about firmware updates from Hell, etc.
We now return you to your previously scheduled program on creative light wiring.
