How about potentially dangerous car thief traps?

I was bored and watching some CNN news clip late one night, roughly around 3 in the morning, after everything on cable had turned to crap. There came an article about some country, Brazil I think, where car thefts and car jackings are much more numerous than here in the States, so the people have come up with some cool concepts.

They arm their cars.

One version, the least harmful, is a tear gas bomb that, unless disarmed by the driver, detonates when someone tries to steal the car.

Another version – which I approve of – consists of a shotgun hidden under the dash (Probably a stripped down, custom version) that unless disarmed, fires when the car is started and kind of rips out a large chunk of the thief.

Some, being kinder, rig air bags in the roof and when an unauthorized person hops in the car and starts it, the thing detonates directly down on the head of the thief, knocking him cold.

Apparently some rig small explosive charges under the seat, some choose pepper sprays, some use poison gas, but the general feeling is, get the SOBs any way possible and if they are maimed or die in the process, so what?

After having two cars vandalized by would be thieves – I had installed secret cut off switches, and having to pay for expensive repairs, plus having acquaintances who have had their beloved cars stolen and either recovered stripped down or never recovered at all, I tend to think that mantrapping a car is a viable alternative.

Arm the car with a lethal device that operates on a key ring sending unit and if you get jacked, as the bugger drives off, trigger it and blow him out of the drivers door.

A friend of mine, having lost two expensive cars, asked me to help him design a security device and a defensive trap. (He had been jacked in broad daylight twice also. Lojack recovered the cars but the experience was unnerving and the jackers had trashed the insides.)

We worked out a system consisting of two tear gas bombs. One under the dash and one in the bottom of a rear passenger door. If you did not click off a hidden switch, once you started the car, both would detonate.

Then we designed a series of 4 .12 gauge shotgun shells to fit into the drivers side door. (We had some problems getting the window to work.) I won’t go into detail, but detonators were rigged to operate electronically and a secured button was installed within easy reach. The plan was if a jacker came to the door and tried to take the car, the button when pushed, would trigger the shells, blowing through a custom installed fiberglas panel and kind of removing the jacker. (We were working on a salvaged door from a junkyard to test the thing out.)

Pleased with our success, we started designing passenger side traps, in case one was kidnapped in one’s car. It is much easier to hide shotgun type emitters in the dash. We experimented with various forms of shot, from hard, rubber pellets, to rabbit shot to those lovely explosive tipped shells.

We even started working on plans for taxi cabs in New York City, with a protective, bullet proof barrier and gas canisters.

Then we discussed everything with a lawyer friend, who admired our ideas and concepts, but politely informed us that if we used any of the more lethal ones, we would go to jail for manslaughter! Plus, arming the door of the car was akin to carrying a concealed weapon. Someone would wind up using it on a cop and it would go the way of the beeper gun. If we produced and installed the items, we could be sued. He also pointed out the very real possibility of the door defense being used in road rage.

Killing a car thief is against the law – I don’t know why. If he does not endanger anyone while stealing your car, you may not blow him up with an explosive trap. He also pointed out that the car would probably have to be clearly marked with warning signs in English and Spanish. Non-lethal traps can be used but some thief somewhere after getting a belt of tear gas would probably file suite against the owner.

(There have been recorded cases of farmers owning old houses, unused, with antiques in them and, growing weary of having them pilfered, rigged up shotguns to blast any thieves back out of the door. Some of the surviving thieves pressed charges, sued and won. Go figure!)

OK. Lethal traps aside, do you wise and somewhat insane SDMBers think it should be allowed to seriously mantrap your expensive and cherished car against thieves? Tear gas or pepper sprays are good. You can even rig up a key ring sending unit to activate an ignition cut off, lock the doors and seal the windows. (The entrapment car being used in some places is an example.)

Any ideas or opinions? How about remote detonation of the air bags? That should bother a car jacker as he tries to drive off. (It’s so easy to rig up a hidden cut off switch that kills the power to any devices to make them owner safe.)

How about, along with the barrier in Taxis, locking doors? Violent passengers can be secured inside and rapidly driven to a police station.

I read once where a guy caught a car thief breaking into his car and beat him nearly into a pulp. The police accepted the lame story that the guy attacked the owner
and he had to defend himself, ignoring the shrill complaints from a neighbor – who knew the thief – that he had done no such thing. That story cheered me up.

So, what do you think?

(Years ago, it was considered ‘fun’ to get a model T coil from a junk yard, charge it up and wire it into the frame of a car. The ground was soaked on the desired side and anyone who strolled up, stood in the wet and leaned on the car obtained a somewhat unnerving shock as the coil discharged. I don’t think today’s coils will do that.)

CAREFUL! We don’t want to learn from this!(Calvin and Hobbs)

Good lord, Sentinel! I have to ask. If your trigger is on your key ring, how exactly do you activate it in the event of a carjacking, as the carjacker would, I presume, HAVE YOUR CAR?


Sala, can’t you count?!? I said NO camels! That’s FIVE camels!

Short legal answer: This is BAD. Do not do it!

I have to run back into a meeting. I can give you more reasoning later.

Bill


You don’t have a thing to worry about. I’ll have the jury eating out of my hand. Meanwhile, try to escape.

Sig by Wally M7, master signature architect to the SDMB

Deliberately seriously injuring or even killing people because they steal or attempt to steal a car?

Please tell me I’m missing some sort of humour here. If you’re serious, I can’t help you. There are professional therapists for that.

I saw this on TV a while back:

Carjackings have become so common in South Africa that someone (I can’t remember if it was an individual or a company) rigged up a car with flamethrowers that could be activated from inside.

Also, in some states, I believe that shooting somebody who tries to carjack you is considered self-defense.


TMR
If you believed in yourself, and tore enough holes
in your pants, there was always a mist-filled alley
right around the corner.

Read Massad Ayoob’s “The Truth About Self Protection” section on booby traps. The booby is the person who sets one.

First of all, it is effectively an automatic loss in a civil case. It would take a pure miracle to win a civil case against the criminal or his family. You do not have the right to injure or kill somebody unless you are in danger or losing your life or being severely injured. Obviously, somebody stealing your car is not going to cost you your life or severly injure you unless you are standing in front of it or are in it. This is why if you are carjacked it is often considered self defense. The same applies to a burglar in your house. The legal reasoning isn’t that you are legally entitled to kill the person over your property it is that his presence in your home as a thief while you are there is a highly possible precursor to his harming you or your family. This is why in many states you cannot blast somebody on your front lawn who is threatening you, only when he is trying to break into the house or actually inside (situations vary heavily).

Second, time and time again, people who set booby traps end up the victims of their own trap. It is inevitable. Sooner or later everybody gets complacent about the trap and then wham-o. One dead or injured booby.

Third, booby traps can quite easily get the wrong person. For example, a firefighter coming through the front door of your house being killed by a booby trap shotgun.

Fourth, in this particular case, if you get into an accident with this vehicle it wouldn’t be surprising to have your traps set off killing you.

A common myth is that non-lethal or prankster traps are okay. Think again. One person put a bucket of water over a door so that it would fall on a potential thief’s head. Unfortunately for him the bucket didn’t tip and landed on the thief breaking his neck and paralyzing him for life. He lost in court.

Setting booby traps is a very bad idea in almost every sense.

One of the weirdest concepts that I have ever heard was from a friend of mine that was way into snakes and lizards.

He was going through some trouble with his car being broken into and vandalized. His solution was to put a rattlesnake in his car at night. He said a rattler would be best because they make up for in aggressiveness what they lacked in toxicity. I guess a coral snake would just sit there.

Here is the scenario. Vandal breaks into car. Snake bites vandal. Vandal says “oh crap a snake just bit me” and runs off. The vandal’s agitated state makes the venom work faster, but at this point who cares the message has been sent. The snake then wanders off to freedom leaving no evidence in the car, unless it has molted recently.

Now my buddy was not afraid of the snake when he had to use his car. I am not sure if it was his confidence in his snake handling abilities or general wackiness.


Hey Bevis better get one of the captain.

You have my sympathy, Sentinel. I too have no idea why we are so squeemish about killing thieves in this country. You might want to think about a non-lethal psychological approach like I did after my truck was repeatedly broken into.

I made a very real looking bomb
using “dynamite” made from tubes of red construction paper, wrapped with common black electrical tape and wired to a digital egg timer. It was stashed under the dashboard, out of view of the street, but very visible from the ignition. Then I just left the door unlocked.

Nowadays I use a bloody human skull.

It’s actually a plastic artists model, cast from a real skull and available from the Dick Blick artist suppy catalog for about $40. The blood is iron oxide red water color (Winsor Newton #6), astoundingly real looking. I just put it on the drivers seat, cover it with a t-shirt which is also attatched to the window crank on the door (so when the door is opened the skull is revealed). You’d be surprised at how few people their fingerprints associated with a car with a bloody skull in it.

Wow, you’re a one-man A-team, Sentinel! I pity the fool who jacks my car!

I think the non-lethal traps are best for vehicle theft - you already highlighted some of the potential problems with the more deadly booby traps.

In my job I am often required to repossess motor vehicles and ANY type of trap would be very dangerous to me and would make my job considerably harder. It’s bad enough I’ve got to worry about a pissed off owner, rabid guard dogs and territorial neighbors, but now I’ve got to live in fear of shotgun shells, airbags packed with cyanide, high voltage steering wheels and trunk-release harpoons?? No thanks.

Even with gas traps, I would demand a sticker be placed in the window indicating that this vehicle is “Forced Entry Protected: Pepper Spray”. At least I would then know what I’m getting into. Same thing with vehicles which are valet parked. I’ve forgotten to turn my system to “valet mode” on occasion - no real harm done, but imagine forgetting to disarm your guillotine!

It’s just a possession after all: let it go.

Move. Jesus. ::making note to self never to own car in large city::


A little persistance goes a long way. Announcing:

“I go on guilt trips a couple of time a year. Mom books them for me.” A custom made Wally .sig!

SwimmingRiddles has it correct. It’s generally a bad idea to own a vehicle in the city. Having lived in two major cities myself (NYC and SF), I never had the need for my own vehicle until I had kids. When I did have kids, my car was garaged all the time: I took the bus to work.

Glitch and Sake pointed out the real problems with booby traps (and self-defense in general). A booby trap may well harm a person with a legal right to enter the vehicle, especially an emergency worker.

Also, being a civilized society, we allow ourselves to cause death or injury only when there is a credible threat to our own person. To allow ourselves to kill when any of our rights are in jeopardy is ludicrous. Should I be allowed to shoot someone who is making too much noise? We have to draw the line somewhere.

Inky-'s bloody skull idea seems the cleverest. The fake dynamite seems a bad idea; if an emergency worker mistook it for the real thing, it would prevent a rescue or impede control of a vehicle fire. The bloody skull, however, would not deter someone from responding to an emergency.

I don’t understand people who want to kill ordinary theives. Thievery is certainly a problem, but it’s not that serious. I won’t die because I lose my car; at worst I’m inconvenienced while I wait for my insurance to kick in.

There are a lot of problems in our society that we can correct or address without killing someone. And what if you make a mistake? The legend of the Gun-Toting Granny is merely humorous; had she unloaded the pistol on the unsuspecting men, it would have been a tragedy. Unless your life is in immediate danger, you shouldn’t make irreversable decisions.


Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

OMG! ROFLMAOPIMP! I’m crying here! That’s beautiful! I am so impressed.

All i want to know, Mark, is why anyone would need this? Isn’t having the car not stolen enough?


Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
One week, two days, 16 hours, 40 minutes and 57 seconds.
387 cigarettes not smoked, saving $48.47.
Life saved: 1 day, 8 hours, 15 minutes.

Seriously, Mark, you’ve mentioned the depression and other aspects of mental illness you’ve struggled with. Considering what you’ve been posting the last couple of weeks, I urge you to go back to your doctor and discuss this with him.

Well, the legal reasons that it’s a really bad idea are the ones everyone else said.

Bill

Here’s a thought: forget about actually installing a gas trap…just use the **sticker[/B that S.S. is suggesting. If it looks official (and plausible) enough, it might make the car thief decide to move on to another car.


Live a Lush Life
Da Chef

I like the idea about rigging the airbags to self detonate. After all, they only cost about two grand each to repack. One idea that I used to think was cool was from a fellow who said he hung a wad of fish hooks behind the ignition switch to bite anyone trying to mess with the wires. Just thinking about it hurts like hell.

The fishhook idea… Could the thief sue?

On the one hand, this wouldn’t be without precedent. Things similar to this have happened with thieves breaking into houses and getting injured.

On the other hand, the defense could be, “Well, it’s my car, I have the right to put fish hooks wherever the hell I want.”


Blessed are the Fundamentalists, for they shall inhibit the earth.
*

There is an alarm system out there that fills the car with a white fog in a few seconds. They can’t see anything. The substance is nontoxic.

The valet key to my car is in the center glovebox.

If you break in, I never want to see the vehicle again!

Why do people get so attached? I’d be more upset about what I’d left inside the car than the car itself…

My house, on the other hand, you stay the fuck out of my house!


Cats are like Baptists. They raise hell but you’ll never catch them at it.