I went to the UVA/GA-Tech game yesterday, and UVA contested where the ball was placed after a tackle. Upon review, it was shifted back a few inches behind the 1st down line. Due to my negative feelings about sports, especially college sports, I don’t watch much, so I’ve never seen this happen before. That got me wondering about how hard it is for the referees to accurately determine exactly where the ball is down.
I know that I often have trouble telling from my vantage point from the stands or the TV. It’s easy for a clean tackle where the player’s knees and the ball come down together, but when people are doing flips and sliding around, or when a player flies out of bounds mid-leap, I can’t tell. But I’m not a paid referee. Hell, the only thing I’ve ref’d was soccer, and I sucked at that. How much error is expected, and how much actually occurs? Is it common to contest placements? I see them bring out the 10-yard measurer thing a lot, but the ball has always stayed put from what I’ve seen.
Changing the spot of the ball happens fairly frequently when a call is reviewed via instant replay. In the NFL, coaches are allowed to challenge a limited number of calls, and will sometimes use a challenge when it can make the difference in the offense getting a first down or having to punt. You also sometimes see it on a play reviewed near the goal line to determine whether the play scored or not.
Not to hijack, but how accurate are those graphics in pro tennis that supposedly show exactly where the ball landed relative to the line? Do they get that info from video, or is there some other magic involved that shows if the ball’s “footprint” was one inch long/wide?
How accurate are the spots? There’s so much slop involved that even as an official I find the dog and pony show about bringing out the chains to be a complete farce.
The wing officials will see the runner down, judge where the ball was at that point, run in a few steps and thrust out a foot. The umpire, sometimes standing a good 50 feet away, will use that foot to spot the ball. If it’s a pretty clear first down on the start of a drive, the spot often will get moved to a yard line, instead of between one, to make setting the chains easier. On plays close to the goal line or first down, the officials will be able to know if it’s short or not, and will crash in and give a spot that’s usually within a few inches of where it should be.
I had this exact discussion with a couple of former college players yesterday. They all agreed that it was very subjective - the placement of the ball - and that the bringing the chains out ritual is kinda silly. But the general feeling was that you win some - you lose some - it all evens out over time.
During the Bears- Saints game a few weeks ago, in the first quarter there was a play where the Saints runner clearly went out of bounds between the 34 and the 35 yard line marks on their own end of the field, and the sideline referee ran and stood with his foot at a point to mark where the runner stepped out between the 34 and the 35. The first down marker was at the 36, so the Saints were looking at third and a little more than one yard to go.
Since the 35 is a solid line extending across the field, and one of the camera replays was from a vantage point equivalent to looking straight down from the stands at the 35 at practially no angle to the play, it was pretty clear the runner went out of bounds before crossing the 35.
There was some question of a late hit by the Bears, so Sean Payton (coach of the Saints) spent a few minutes complaining to the ref. (This was the play where he could clearly be seen to say “That is unacceptable!”) This was the second disagreement that Payton had with the refs within a few plays of each other. In the end, no penalty was called by the refs.
When play resumed, the ball was positioned on the sideline at the 36. They brought out the chains to measure it, and lo and behold, first down. Even one of the announcers commented, “it looks like the referees have changed the spot of the ball.”
I have no idea if the placement was adjusted as a sop to Payton, or if someone managed to move the ball undetected while Payton was conferring with the refs, but given that the sideline ref had initially spotted the place where the runner went out (correctly) between the 34 and 35, and the new position was exactly what was needed for a first down at the 36, I really am curious as to what actually transpired.
I think you’re probably right, but what other method would you suggest they use to determine if they’ve gained the needed yardage? I don’t think anybody claim’s it’s perfect, only that it’s all we have to work with at this point.
We’re probably to the point we could add some tiny sensors in the ball, but I don’t know if or why this hasn’t been seriously considered.
My favorites are the punts that sail way out of bounds. How on earth do they even begin to attempt to determine where that thing crossed the out of bounds line? You’d almost need an overhead view to get it right.
There are two methods, the common way is when the head referee (white hat) stands where the punter kicked it and faces in the direction of the kick. The sideline official on that side runs along the sideline until he intersects with the kick direction.
Another way* is the white hat again stands at the punters original spot, and another official stands where the kick landed. The second official then moves directly toward the referee until he hits the sideline.
Neither is 100% accurate, but it’s within two or three yards. I don’t think a more precise method is worth the trouble.
As far as every-down spots, those are always perfect. Trust me.
*: The first one is the official mechanic, and a first year guy isn’t going to covince anybody the other way is better, especially in the middle of a game.
I’ve been on the chains crew for high-school football, and I can agree with this statement. But it’s the best we’ve got at the moment.
The officials do the best they can under game conditions, but there are times standing there on the sidelines I’d wonder how they came up with placing the ball where they did. Then the chains guy tries his best to put the post right at the wing official’s foot, then keep it in the same relative position while moving the required distance away from the sideline. Working down there really gives me the perspective to shake my head with a wry chuckle when I see a measurement on TV of either inches short or just past the first down marker.
But how else would you do it? At least this is an accepted method by both teams, and it does even out. There’s no advantage one way or the other. it’s just not as spot-on accurate as you might be led to believe.
It doesn’t have to be accurate. It has to provide a simple means of decisively resolving the question of whether a 1st down has been gained, in a manner that doesn’t provide either team with an advantage.
Taking the best estimate of where the ball was and randomly adding or subtracting 10 yards with equal probability would be simple, decisive, and fair, but horribly inaccurate and stupid.
Actually discussed this with my father this week. There is no way the chains and spots are accurate, but this is the only way we currently have to keep track of the spot of the ball on the field.
Watch the two line judges run into the pile after a play is over. Most of the time they adjust to each other’s path until they level out. If they are off the mark, the one that gets the ball is the one that decides the spot, even if the other guy was actually closer.
Unless you instant replayed each and every play, I don’t see how you’d ever get this guestimating out of the game.
One thing I’ve always wondered… If I was a hometown guy and was part of the chain crew, and the other guy and I were in cahoots, couldn’t we easily move the chains an inch or two in my team’s favor, without getting caught? That very close measurement could be shifted an inch or two in my teams favor, correct?
The punt out of bounds is another issue. This always seems like a wag. Not that I came blame the officials, since I never saw this as something that was even possible. But I think this could be figured out automatically in domed stadiums by having cameras right over the sidelines that would move with the kick, so you would see exactly where it crossed the boundary marker. This could then be radioed to the on-field official and that would be that.
An experienced referee that has worked hundreds, if not thousands of games can be pretty accurate when placing the ball as long as that referee has no agenda. 100% accurate, no, but they get pretty good at their craft. Unfortunately, there are referees out there with an agenda.
Yes, bringing out the chains in is a crap shoot on a close placement. Why should the ball placement at spot where some referee lays it down be the determining factor especially when it is within a couple of inches? Well, that’s part of the drama of the game but isn’t necessarily accurate.
The NFL and the NCAA could make the the first downs accurate. A small sensor in the ball could be entirely accurate. Hell, they can use different balls for kicking and regular play, why can’t they have a sensor in the ball and eliminate the chains except for visual use for the audience?
I think someday it will happen. The sport just has to get ready and adapt to it. Reviewing plays was a big step and I think that will lead to accurate first downs and ball placement with lasers and sensors.
Anecdotaly, last Saturday’s MSU/Wisconsin game was exhibit A. The “Hail Mary” on the last play ended up in a receiver’s hands and he plunged toward the goal line. It was close but the call on the field said that the ball hadn’t crossed the plane. The video showed that it clearly had and it was ruled a touchdown. The review afforded the right call. Not that all reviews are accurate but situations like that can push public opinion and the governing authorities towards making the chains obsolete. I hope so. The proper technology could be easily implemented.
I actually discussed this with someone once. His idea was to have a sensor in each nose of the football and, to take it a lot further, have a completely fiber optic field that would light up where the football should be spotted and have flashing lights or something if it crosses the end zone. The fiber optic field will probably never happen, but sensors could be installed in the ball with relative ease.