How are they intending to have electric-car charging stations in urban areas?

Factual Questions
81

Exactly. There will only be so many cars in the city, or on each residential block, same as today. Just - each will have an adjacent charger. You park, plug in, and unplug and go to work in the morning, just like someone with an attached garage. One of these years, every car will be like Tesla, and tell the charger who that car is, so the charger network can directly bill their account. Same at work, if that’s where the charger is. Once there is no shortage of charger spots, there is no need for overtime parking fees.

The bigger problem is cost - my home charger costs $US450. Equipping every parking spot with one of these, plus wiring and distribution infrastructure, is going to be the biggest headache. Hence the reason for the OP’s question…

My experience - when it gets to -30°C (-20F or so) I find that my Model 3 will get about 1km for every 3km range I consume, but that’s stop-and-go city driving averaging about 20kph (12mph) with heavy traffic and plenty of lights. Much of that goes to cabin heat (newer cars have a heat pump instead), cold battery, and uninsulated glass roof. I have 500km (300mi) range, but recommendation is to charge only to about 80% and not go below 20% habitually, so I have 300km of range, which becomes 100km (60 miles) - but rarely is it that cold, and on those days if I need to, I can charge to 90% or 100% (which I’ve never had to do). Higher speed highway driving is not that bad, about 1.5 to 1 in cold weather. I’m assuming a battery with about 30% more capacity would work for any weather for most commuters.

Plus, you can tell the car - while still plugged in at home - to use the power from the charger to warm the battery for better performance.

the idea of using block heater plugs doesn’t really fly - 120V 15A (actually 12A continuous) will charge about 5km/hr… if the battery is warm. I have never tried it, but I understand that outdoors in cold weather, all this amount of power will do is warm the battery. After all, the battery is basically in the body pan made of steel - not really cold-weather ready. Presumably you could change the outlets to 240V, but to add amps too you’d have to replace all the wiring. When i was up north, some places wout cycle the block heater power so the total current draw in the parking lot was lower, since a block heater did not need to be continuously on.

82

The cold issue is why I have held off on an electric car until we get ranges over 300 mi. I assume that in the dead of winter that will drop to maybe 150-200, and winter is the time you really, really don’t want to have range anxiety. In a small car, after a big snow dump range will be even worse since you have to drive through heavy snow instead of dry pavement. Add in the yearly loss in battery capacity, and in 10 years a car with a 150-200 mile range in summer when new would be almost useless in winter.

83

Battery deterioration should not be an issue (unless you own an older Nissan Leaf). Here’s a look at battery degreadation for Tesla -

250,000km (150,000 miles) and a 10% reduction? That’s at least 10 years. Also keep in mind that the higher mileage vehicles, unless really old, probably experienced a lot of high-speed (L3) charging. While L3 charging is not automatically bad for the vehicle, it is recommended (same as charging to 100% and draining below 10%) to do this only when necessary, rather than doing it frequently. Newwer battery tech may mitigate this, but for now, unless you are a high-mileage commuter, deterioration should not be a problem.

I agree, I think a “sweet spot” for charge capacity for a road-trip or long commute car should be more like 500mi/800km. Perhaps as the tech evolves this will become practical. For now, the sweet spot is as much determined by battery cost. If someone typically drives less than 100mi a day, why carry around 500mi of battery? Why pay for a couple of hundred miles capacity that you may never use?

When EV’s are far more common, charging will be too - consider how many gas stations you see all along the main roads and highways. Now consider that chargers are cheaper, simpler, and require less maintenance or attendance than the tanks, pumps, etc. that make up a gas station and can go in the corner of any parking lot.

84

What about pre-heating the cabin too? Same for air conditioning in the summer. Get the car’s interior to temperature while still plugged in then you save on the battery drain. Granted cars aren’t well insulated but in extreme conditions I bet it helps. Bonus points for comfort too.

85

At 5-15°F (I’m south of the border), I get about 65% of my stated range. Over 15°F and it bumps up to 75% or so, and then a steady climb to 100% of range around 45-50°F. There are several reasons for the lower range in cold weather: as stated, use of the heater; snow tires; and denser air.

It’s not a catastrophic range loss for a car with 300 miles of range, but is the main reason I wouldn’t consider a first gen Leaf—60 mile range is really less than 30 in the winter after battery degradation.

Expect about 10-15% lifetime battery degradation.

Pre-heating off “shore power” is a great way to extend range.

What I’ve heard from people charging outdoors in the winter off 110V is that the trick is to plug in and start charging immediately after driving, while the battery is still warm.

86

It’s my understanding that a standard outlet in Finland (see post 80) is 230 V and (at least) 16 A capacity, which is already more interesting.

87

Yeah. Now imagine what it is when it’s -30. Temps like that happen here all the time. And if you ever think you might need your car in a winter storm, you have to plan for the worst-case scrnario.

88

So I called an electrician today to schedule an appointment to get a quote for installing a level-2 charger in our house. And he gave me some bad news:

We live in a house with a 100 amp electrical service. That’s probably the most common in new developments. Our neighborhood also has underground wiring. We also have an electric stove and dryer.

He tells me we can’t run level 2 on that service without a load balancer, and upgrading the service is a minimum of $20,000, and could be as high as $45,000 because they have to trench on both private and public property to do it.

The alternate solution is still expensive - install a sub-panel with the other 240v high load devices on it, then install a load balancer which will cut current to the car charger if we run the stove or the dryer. But we still won’t come close to full level 2 charging - more like 20 amps average instead of 40-80.

There are going to be a LOT of people in that situation, or even worse because in many older neighborhoods they only have 60A service to the houses.

I’ll report back on the actual quote, but my guess is that installing a sub-panel, load balancer and a charger will run at least $2000-$3000, not including the cost of the charger. And it’ll be somewhere between level 1 and level 2 at best. That might be the reality for a lot of people.

89

GPS is notoriously inaccurate in urban canyons; doesn’t work at all in underground garages, & will have limited results in above ground garages (may work near the edge but not in the inner rows). No, GPS won’t be the solution for urban parking

  1. Single parent (whether full time or just on that given night because SO is working/away) gets home at 6:30, plugs in but the toddler is in bed two hours later when they’d go to unplug & move the car. Does one wake the kid, dress them, & drag them outside to move the car? Leave them unattended in the house?
  2. You get home at 6pm & plug in. However, when you’d otherwise unplug & move it a couple of hours later it’s pouring rain; now you either forget to move it or don’t move it until 10pm after the rain stops. I got home at 8:30 & look out the window every so often but never find the space open to move into; eventually giving up & go bed. The next day, I haven’t charged up & now have range issues.
  3. Urban residential areas (row homes/brownstones/apartments) already have a lack of street parking, I guarantee if it’s the only spot on the block, someone is going to be parked in the EV recharge station, either an ICE vehicle or an EV after they are charged up.
90

It is true that any technology based on receiving data from satellites will have problems underground or with a view of the sky confined by high rise buildings.

However, GPS is just one of several technologies that can be used for location tracking to locate a vehicle for parking, especially in controlled private spaces like car parks. Location services already combine GPS data with other sources to improve accuracy. The original GPS satellite constellation has been joined by several others and the latest generation of GPS chips have greatly improved accuracy. Location based services are a major growth area and the improvements in accuracy in consumer devices like smartphones are noticeable. This technology will inevitably find its way into vehicles, especially EVs, along with all the other technologies that contribute towards locating the vehicle accurately. In any case, it is better to deal with the simplest cases first: car parking with a clear view of the sky.

Consider all the investment that is going into self driving cars. Parking a vehicle in a controlled space
like a car park or depot is probably the simplest use case.

An automatic car valet service for urban parking cannot be far off. Just as with EV charging, it will probably appear in a proprietary form first. Tesla charging becomes Tesla automatic valet parking and charging? Sounds like a money spinner.

Income from parking charges is a big revenue earner for many public authorities. The cost of collecting it and enforcing parking regulations is a huge overhead. Usually these services are contracted out to management companies who like things just as they are. So I expect there will be cities who be very slow to change….until they go to a smart cities conference and become more confident of the business case.

An end to parking meters and wardens patrolling the streets writing tickets? An end to anxious drivers cruising around the streets desperately looking for a parking space? Bring it on! The automatic deductions from your bank account?..…not so keen on that.

The EVs with advanced software will make possible additional services. Interacting with smart parking systems and using that big battery for grid balancing, or car sharing…Motoring and the traditional model of car ownership will surely change.

91

Yes, we looked into it, and it’s going to be a major job to get a proper charger in the garage.

92

That’s distressing news from both of you. Maybe this will be a widespread problem. For us it was a simple “can you put a charger in our garage?” and then “Sure, no problem.” Our house is pretty old, last upgraded in the 70s, but I guess we have plenty of electrons to go around.

93

One of the people who found that adding a charger would be expensive lives in a neighborhood with underground electrical service and trenches would need to be dug if he wanted to upgrade beyond 100 amp service. On the other hand, where I grew up, the power lines are on utility poles, so my guess is that an upgrade would be cheaper. And I think that newer homes are built with more than 100 amp service by default.

94

I’m curious – what happens when your car runs out of charge? Does it slow down gradually, giving you a warning and enough time to get off the road, or does it just stop?

Also, say you miscalculated, and you do find yourself with a totally dead car out somewhere. Do you have to have it towed? Or wait for hours for it to recharge, assuming there’s some sort of mobile recharging system? When it happens with a ICE, there are road services that will simply pour in a gallon or two of gas, enough to get you to a service station pretty much any where.

95

There are road services that will provide a quick charge. (Googling, I see that one such service can add about a mile of range per minute.)

96

I’ve never had this happen, but people have tested this and put the results on Youtube. As I recall, you get a lot of warnings from the car, and directions to the nearest charger. Most will give you a few miles beyond “zero.” They go into low power mode at the end, shutting down everything that’s not needed (and perhaps slowing the speed) Then you’re dead in the water.

97

Towing services are available that can bring out a diesel generator or a battery supply and push enough power into your dead EV to get it to a charging station.

Failing that, they could likely trailer it like they do with some other vehicles that can’t be towed.

98

I also have 100A service. I had a friend of a friend who was an electrician install the 50A breaker (So max 40A continuous). He did not worry about permits or loads, naughty me - I made a point of not charging except when scheduled at 1AM when I would not be cooking or using the dryer. (I have a gas furnace) I did have one night after 2 years where the breaker popped, my theory being the A/C,freezer, fridge and the hot water tank must have all kicked together in in the middle of the night. We don’t usually need A/C overnight, but…

So I set the max charge down to 26A on the car control (instead of the physical setting of 40A) and it’s not been a problem since. My service is a NEMA 15-50 stove plug, and I installed a stove plug pigtail rated for 50A on the charger. The socket would allow me to use the Tesla portable charger if there were a failure of my wall-mounted charger, so a contingency too.

This goes back to the original discussion - the grid that has the capacity to run air conditioners and ovens during peak has the capacity to charge cars off-peak. Unfortunately, the assorted power hogs in your house do not yet communicate well to share the load, and it will be a while before all the necessary power draw appliances are replaced with ones that do.

Your car gives you plenty of warning that charge is getting low. Besides the continuously updates “estimated range remaining” display, the battery charge indicator turns yellow (then red, I’m told - I’ve never pushed it). Presumably, this will only happen if you run into unforeseen circumstances. You can take steps to mitigate the problem, chief among them slowing down to 55mph as if you were a regular car running low on gas. This can make a substantial difference in range. But generally, if it’s 40 miles to the nearest charger and you only have 10 miles remaining, you probably will need a tow,

But as I’ve mentioned, I would leave every morning with a “full tank”. it’s a different mindset than a “fill when it’s time” ICE vehicle. In a few years when EVs are common enough, where will you be 40 miles from a charger? How often are you 40 miles from a gas station today? Plus chargers can be 24-7 and in all sorts of places, unlike gas stations.

Apropos of the OP’s question, I expect in the future tow trucks will also carry a medium battery pack (or eventually when they are EV’s, use their own battery) to charge stranded motorists. There’s no reason a battery pack can’t configured to be a portable CCS L3 fast charger, it just wouldn’t do more than 1 or 2 vehicles without recharging. Considering what towing costs nowadays…

Yes, wall plugs in Europe are 240V not 110V. This makes a big difference - twice in fact. Plus a standard US plug is 15A, which really means 12A continuous is the recommended max. 240V 18A should charge a decent amount. Standard J1772 or Tesla home charger tend to be 240V 32A (8kW) and will add about 47km/hr (27mi/hr) so 18A will do about half that.- not bad if plugged in all day while at work.

As for temperatures - the floor pan of the Model 3 is a giant flat sealed pizza box shape battery pack of stainless steel with minimal insulation. Heating the battery is only temporary at -30°. Especially with 110V or very low amperage a lot of the power will go into trying to warm the battery so it can charge. (I have seen an advert for stick-on foam covering for the underside to help insulate the battery pack, plus protect it from road hazards) it takes the same power to heat the battery no matter what, so subtracting X Watts from 110Vx12A=1.3kW versus 240Vx18A=4.5kW leaves a lot less left over for charging.

But yes, you can precondition the interior (heat or cool) plugged in or not, as well as condition the battery. One of the fun things was using my phone telling the car to warm up as I prepared to leave work. By the time I walked a block or two to where I parked on the street (unplugged), the interior was toasty warm and the snow was melting off the window, even in the deep cold.

99

Here’s an article that’s popped up on a few EV and car sites in the last week. An electric school bus in Alaska is working great, even at -40°.

At those temperatures they use more battery keeping the bus warm than for propulsion, but the bus does have a big interior. They only have to keep the interior at 45°F, but that makes lots of sense, because it would be awful to dress for -40°, and then have to ride in a bus where the heat was turned up to 70°.

At those temperatures, even ICE engines also have to take special precautions. One thing about at least Tesla EVs is that they will limit the power the battery will provide and charging rates at low temperatures to prevent damage. Is there anything to prevent over exerting an engine before even the 0 weight oil has warmed up enough to flow everywhere?

100

That’s one of the purposes of an engine block heater.