How Atheism might prevail

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@Martini Enfield

This is nothing against you in particular, pseudotron, but I’m starting to feel that Atheists (and I use the capital “A” to differentiate those atheists who actually feel that religion is harmful/blatantly false/etc from those who just aren’t religious) are almost as bad as the Fundamental Religious People, with the “You simply must believe us! We’re right! To believe otherwise is dangerous!” attitude.

Exactly. I’m imagining soon there will be roving troops of them going door-to-door in an effort to ‘enlighten’ the beknighted.

PRR, any proselytization is tiresome. Rabid atheists are no less unappealing than rabid religionists.

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@astorian

If you were ever able to force schools to teach “critical thinking,” you would remove all doubt. You would CONFIRM religious parents’ worst fears, and create a mass exodus from public schools.

Don’t be fooled. PRR is using ‘critical thinking’ the way Religious Righties who are out boffing their male secretaries while snorting coke use ‘family values’; that is they hypocritically pervert a concept to their own ends and infuse it with different meaning. In this case ‘critical thinking’ is shorthand for ‘rabid atheistic anti-religionism’. Don’t let him (or them) bastardize ‘critical thinking’ this way.

[Odesio]

@pseudotriton ruber ruber

I think what will happen in the next few decades is that some child reared in a God-fearing environment will sue his/her parents for harm resulting from being indoctrinated in religious practices.

What fantasy world do you live in and does everyone know you there? I can imagine the exact scenario happening to parents who raise an atheist child. The poor child grows up disconnected from a community that believes in god. He is ridiculed for his beliefs, he feels no connection to the community at large, and this in turn causes him no small amount of anxiety. So the young man sues, and pretty soon parents are afraid of teaching their children any beliefs that fall outside of the mainstream for fear of litigation.

It’s nice to know that atheist have their share of ideas that are just as kooky as those held by some theist.

Marc

[Malacandra]

@Quiddity Glomfuster

Exactly. I’m imagining soon there will be roving troops of them going door-to-door in an effort to ‘enlighten’ the beknighted.

Well, why not? The overprivileged titled bastards need a wake-up call.

PRR, any proselytization is tiresome. Rabid atheists are no less unappealing than rabid religionists.

[smug]“Yes, but I’m right[/smug] except for not being able to spell ‘prerogative’, but why would an English professor know something like that?”

[According_to_Pliny]

The key during the days of the Founding Fathers was to link the church with another corrupt institution, colonial era Parliament.
The spirit of revolution questions all authority, and inquiry is the end of faith.

[aclubs]

@Lissa

That would be a huge kettle of fish to open.

Indeed it would, and that’s my point. There’s no logical outward bounds within which this legal theory could be contained.

[What_Exit]

@Lissa

I think this is one of the reasons why religion will never “die out.” The others, in my opinion, are:

1. People want to feel like they have a measure of control over their enviornment. Being able to pray to a deity who may intervene is comforting.

2. People want “meaning” as you mentioned. They want to believe that everything happens for a reason and that their actions matter, if not to those around them, at least to an omniscent observer.

3. People want justice. It’s comforting to believe that those who have done wrong will eventually get punishment for their actions, if not in this world then at least in the next one. Likewise, even if good deeds aren’t rewarded here, they will be after death.

4. People like the idea of a deity who loves them and watches out for them. If no one else in the world cares, at least the deity does.

5. And lastly, religion will never die out because people want an afterlife. Some people have an enormous problem with the idea that one day they will cease to exist. Surely, they have to go on in some other form. They don’t want to believe that their loved ones are truly gone forever-- it’s much more comforting to believe they’re in a happy place and will eventually be reunited.

Good points all, though I am not one of those people. Points 3 & 5 are not quite correct. There are religions that do not really believe in an afterlife or retribution. The Jewish faith has no Hell and no firm concept of Heaven. There are others.

@magellan01

If this is an example of fatih-free critical thinking, the religious have very little to worry about.

My what an astute retort. That was a great contribution to the debate.

Jim

[Liberal]

@astorian

I went to a Jesuit high school. I understand that critical thinking is not inherently anti-religious. But it was clear from the proposal being floated that, in this case, “critical thinking” courses WERE being promoted as a way of undermining religion.

Christian parents can recognize an anti-religious agenda when they see one. And if “critical thinking” courses are seen as part of a secular agenda for wiping out their faith, they won’t sit still for it, and won’t send their kids to schools where such courses are in place.

Right. And I don’t blame them. If it’s nothing more than the appropriation of a phrase for a (dumb) cause, then I wouldn’t sit still for it either. Critical thinking should be about thinking before concluding. A healthy skepticism doesn’t mean doubting everything by default. It means doubting one’s own understanding. It is a philosophy from Pyrrho of Elis, that stresses the uncertainties in our own beliefs. I know that the word has morphed to take on certain connotations of doubt, but still…

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@Malacandra

Originally Posted by Quiddity Glomfuster
Exactly. I’m imagining soon there will be roving troops of them going door-to-door in an effort to ‘enlighten’ the beknighted.

Well, why not? The overprivileged titled bastards need a wake-up call.

Er. The silent ‘k’ is supposed to be invisible as well? ? No? Damn. :smack:

(slinks off to take more Omega-3s)

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Malacandra

[smug]“Yes, but I’m right[/smug] except for not being able to spell ‘prerogative’, but why would an English professor know something like that?”

WTF are you rattling on about, please?

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Quiddity Glomfuster

Don’t be fooled. PRR is using ‘critical thinking’ the way Religious Righties who are out boffing their male secretaries while snorting coke use ‘family values’; that is they hypocritically pervert a concept to their own ends and infuse it with different meaning. In this case ‘critical thinking’ is shorthand for ‘rabid atheistic anti-religionism’. Don’t let him (or them) bastardize ‘critical thinking’ this way.

Let me the use the term “critical thinking” first, please , before you crticize for me for mis-using it.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Quiddity Glomfuster

Exactly. I’m imagining soon there will be roving troops of them going door-to-door in an effort to ‘enlighten’ the beknighted.

PRR, any proselytization is tiresome. Rabid atheists are no less unappealing than rabid religionists.

Where did I attempt to proselytize?

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@Martini Enfield

This is nothing against you in particular, pseudotron, but I’m starting to feel that Atheists (and I use the capital “A” to differentiate those atheists who actually feel that religion is harmful/blatantly false/etc from those who just aren’t religious) are almost as bad as the Fundamental Religious People, with the “You simply must believe us! We’re right! To believe otherwise is dangerous!” attitude.

This sort of thing is exactly why I consider myself “Unaffiliated”, as opposed to atheist/agnostic/generally non-religious. As long as others aren’t imposing their religious beliefs on me, I won’t impose my lack of religious beliefs on them.

Now, I know the cultural environment in the US is different to the one here, but is it (religion) really that big a deal, provided you don’t live in some backwards rural community in Arkansas or Texas?

All kinds of fundamentalism are bad, Atheism included. Rabid beliefs that make no room for anyone else’s aren’t needed.

[Der_Trihs]

@Martini Enfield

Now, I know the cultural environment in the US is different to the one here, but is it (religion) really that big a deal, provided you don’t live in some backwards rural community in Arkansas or Texas?

The suppression of stem cell research comes to mind. So does the Catholic Church’s opposition to anti-aging research. The irrational support of Israel by Christian fundies. No, it’s no as bad here as it is in some hellhole like Texas, but it does affect me. And I do care about the evils committed by religion that don’t affect me directly.

@Liberal

Just for the record, many people of faith do engage in critical thinking.

Just not about their religion, or they wouldn’t be religious.

@Bryan Ekers

Ah, but you’re conflating belief with action.

Belief affects action, strongly.

As for me, I believe that religion is strongly genetically based, and nothing short of genetic engineering will get rid of it. I believe that’s why even the Soviet Union failed to eliminate it.

[Der_Trihs]

@Least Original User Name Ever

All kinds of fundamentalism are bad, Atheism included. Rabid beliefs that make no room for anyone else’s aren’t needed.

Even if the beliefs in question are objectively wrong ? Or malignant ? Should I pretend that racism or fascism are perfectly valid points of view, then ?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Der Trihs

Belief affects action, strongly.

Nevertheless, there’s a clear demarcation point.

[Hazel]

@astorian

Millions of religious Americans are ALREADY leery of public schools, and ALREADY suspect that secular educators are trying to undermine their children’s faith.

If you were ever able to force schools to teach “critical thinking,” you would remove all doubt. You would CONFIRM religious parents’ worst fears, and create a mass exodus from public schools.

Unfortunately, I fear that the reaction would not be an excodus. Instead, the religious right people would ratchet up their demands (a) that the schools cease and desist from the teaching of critial thinking skills (only they wouldn’t call them that, they’d call them secular humanism or something), and (b) that the schools teach children “the truth” (meaning their particlar brand of “truth”).

If all they wanted was to see to it that their own children were not exposed to ideas of which they disaprove, the simple solution would be to move their kids to religious schools, or home school them. It seems to me that what many of them want is to see to it that *everyone’s * children are given the same religious education they want for their own children.

[truthpizza]

I did not mean to propose having a program in critical thinking which directly addressed critiquing religion. Critical thinking, for me at least, is about avoiding false beliefs. There are all kinds of practical cases where this is important - scams, misleading advertising, being manipulated by politicians, judging risks, unscientific medical claims, etc. Anything taught in a good critical thinking course should only help in avoiding mistakes. It should never promote particular positions.

Nobody should fear critical thinking except someone who is knowing promoting a false position. If, say, Mormonism, rather than atheism, provides an accurate view of reality, then critical thinking ought to be a boon to Mormonism and undermine atheism. Since I happen to think atheism is correct, I think critical thinking will move people in that direction. If atheism is false, it deserves to fail.

[What_Exit]

@Der Trihs

The suppression of stem cell research comes to mind. So does the Catholic Church’s opposition to anti-aging research. The irrational support of Israel by Christian fundies. No, it’s no as bad here as it is in some hellhole like Texas, but it does affect me. And I do care about the evils committed by religion that don’t affect me directly.

Texas is liberal compared to Kansas. Look at some of the crap they are doing to education in that state.

Just not about their religion, or they wouldn’t be religious.

I believe some people do use critical thinking even about their religions, can you provide a cite to support your position? I have friends that are Unitarians and they have applied critical thought and decided there must be a creator and they just do not have a strong clue what he is doing or why. I do not share their belief, but I can see no reason why they are wrong. It is easy to pick apart Fundies, they have nothing but faith and faith cannot stand up to critical thinking. However, there are many others who see in their God an answer to the questions that science has not and possibly cannot answer.

As for me, I believe that religion is strongly genetically based, and nothing short of genetic engineering will get rid of it. I believe that’s why even the Soviet Union failed to eliminate it.

I might buy this one. It does seem to be hardwired into some of us Humans.

Even if the beliefs in question are objectively wrong ? Or malignant ? Should I pretend that racism or fascism are perfectly valid points of view, then ?

However, most religions are not as bad as racism or fascism. I know some are, but I think even you will agree that most are not.

Jim

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@Der Trihs

Even if the beliefs in question are objectively wrong ? Or malignant ? Should I pretend that racism or fascism are perfectly valid points of view, then ?

Shall I clarify to say “religious” fundamentalism?

Additionally, What Exit?, I’d say that all religions DO have the capacity to be perverted. Hell, all schools of thought have the capacity to do evil.