How 'bout you shove the flag up your ass, instead of writing me up? (long, mild)

The BBQ Pit
61

I have rather a lot of issues with the Pledge as it is currently phrased and administered. Although I may or may not stand depending on the occassion (how much of a stink it will cause and whether its worth that much effort), its a ridiculous set up at the moment.

“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America” - Ummmm. Why? NinjaChick is right in that this is a stupid opening. We owe no loyalty to a piece of cloth, no matter its symbolic value.

“And to the republic for which it stands” - Better now, I guess

“One nation, under God” - I stand by Robin Williams joke: “One nation, under Canada and above Mexico”. I don’t think God particularly cares about our nation any more or less than any other, and we certainly aren’t under him in any senses.

“Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all” - The first part is A-OK in my book. We settled that issue during the Civil War. As for the second part… it depends on what is meant. If we’re claiming that the republic as it stands right now offers liberty and justice for all, I call that flat-out lying. If we’re pledging to the idea of a republic with liberty and justice for every citizen, then I can support it.

A pledge is serious, and I am not going to mean it until more clarity is given, even if its at the sacrifice of flow. Also, what sort of allegiance am I swearing here? Blind allegiance without questioning the motives of the republic as a whole? Allegiance to the Constitution, and thus the principles of free expression and skepticism?

Also, if a pledge is a serious thing, is it not showing grave disrespect to take it as lightly as schools do? Ordering or pressuring those with no comprehension or belief in its tenets to mouth the words is a crazy injustice.

Further, why do we keep doing it? If I mean it, then once is enough. A pledge, unless specified specifically within, is for life. If I mean it now, why do I need to say it tommorow? If I don’t mean it now and won’t mean it then, does repetition somehow make things better?

62

Priam, well said. Add to the thoughts in your post these thoughts: What exactly is wanted from this nation’s citizens? Is being a “contributing member of society” a better proof of our patriotism, or is saying a “pledge”? If saying a pledge is a better proof, I’ll ask “Why?” This isn’t a past time, we don’t have to “Swear to our leige” or face dire consequences. This to me, is what MAKING people stand/participate in the PoA is harkening back to. After all, the word alleigance comes from that old practice. I personally feel, that contributing to society by paying your bills on time, not breaking the law, and helping others out in small ways are better ways to be patriotic. Just my 2 cps.

63

Someone else might suggest a romp with your boyfriend. I know I won’t. Nope, not me. I won’t even play the Ignorant College-aged Guy and suggest that since you’re bisexual, you invite a Random Girl along.

I love when I’m restrained:D

64

And you have the restraints to prove it, right pun? :wink:

65

But you yourself are a good example that it can mean almost anything to anyone. For many people, it has become tantamount to a pledge to the President, and many of the recent patriotic expressions are not just, as you claim, some deep respect for veterans in our juster wars, but rather said as a big fuck you to everyone who disagrees with the current administration, which has pretty darn tightly wrapped itself in the flag. I don’t disagree with the administration’s policies the way that the OP does, but you’d have to have been living in a cave to pretend that the recitation of the pledge and displays of patriotism don’t have some very particularistic political motivations and expressions attached.

66

Hey Gobear, if I had refused during high school to stand up in the morning and say “I pledge that I will bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, her heirs and successors, according to the law, so help me God,”* would that have been a slap in the face to all the Canadian soldiers who died, etc., etc.?

Mercifully, we didn’t do this.

67

Why …

Why I will have you know that NO respectable bear from Darkest Peru would have ANY idea just what in the H E Double Hockey sticks you are talking about!

And that a resident of your particular nation would even IMPLY such a thing speaks more than enough about what sort live THERE!

[sub]Right bottom drawer, behind the Astroglide. Although I don’t know if her bedposts are small enough for them to fit.[/sub]

68

I’m glad for you that things came out the way they did, NinjaChick. You were right and the teacher was wrong. I didn’t think that the administration would support the teacher. He was just one individual with a wild hair up his ass (though your image of a flagpole is a lot funnier). If anyone showed disrespect it was he. The only disruption was caused by his narrow minded bigotry.

When I was your age I started every school day at eight sharp in front of the flagpole with two other trumpeters from the band and played “Call To The Colors,” a military bugle call, as another student raised the flag. The bell would ring and everyone on campus was expected to stop whatever they were doing and face the direction of the flagpole, hand over heart, until the flag was raised and the bell rung a second time.

At the time I never questioned it. But if I had, I would have received no support from the school. It was the 1950’s, a time when teachers had to sign loyalty oaths, and Joe Macarthy had people afraid of their friends and colleagues lest someone accuse them of haveing a “wrong-headed” idea. I didn’t have the sense then that you display now. Obviously not all youth is callow. You can be proud of yourself. Because of individuals like you, the climate is a lot more tolerant of dissent today than it was in the fifties. People like your English teacher super-patriot are fewer and farther between. Keep up the good fight.

69

IMO, yes. You something, you have you opinion and I have mine.

BTW, I guess you missed the part where, while deploring her action, I DEFENDED the OP’s right to free expression and gave her the link to the Tinker decision which she printed and successfully used to defend herself.

I know you’ve read the maxim, “I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it” --have you ever thought about what it means?

70

I know you said she was allowed to do this - I am responding to where you said it was disrespectful.

71

You sound extraordinarily mature and eloquent, whereas your English teacher sounds like a brainwashed fuckwit.

Sadly, while teaching attracts some excellent people, it also attracts some dregs. I know which category I would put your teacher in.

72

gobear: I don’t understand why you deplore her action. I understand that she’s free and that the Supreme Court has, for want of a better word, validated her action–in advance, essentially!

73

Two more cents from me:

gobear has every right to deplore my actions. He has the right to tell me I’m a stupid asswick for not standing up for the pledge. So long as he doesn’t attempt to, say, strangle me with a red-white-and-blue bandana or whatnot, or (if he’s in a position of authority) punish me for not rising, we’re all fine. Just like I’ve got the right to not stand, right?

With regards to ‘mindless parrotting’ of the pledge: this does happen. Most people at my school, though, are rather apathetic: they stand, but don’t say it, for whatever reason. I think a lot of it is habit, and a lot of it is also ‘what you’re expected to do’ mentality. Unless someone feels very strongly about it (as I do), they’re probably not going to bother themselves to say it. 'Course, a LOT of my fellow students are rather extremely apathetic, so YMMV.

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::joins the applause for NinjaChick::

::remembers to turn off smilies::

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I never said he didn’t have the right to hold that opinion. I merely said (please look at my posting again for verification of this) that I don’t understand why he formed that opinion. I’m big on the concept of well-formed opinions.