[QUOTE=Zoe]
Why do you have to keep talking about what these women wear? The organization Women in Media are addressing some of the ways that women are still treated differently in the media and the issue of what women candidates are wearing – and in particular, Hillary’s pants suits – is one of them. I would have thought that your feminist-to-the-core mother would have taught you better.
If you are going to post stupidly, don’t let people know that you support Obama.
[/QUOTE]
Ouch! Luckily my mother isn’t a doper. But thanks for scolding me nontheless. Beg your pardon Zoe but if you can show me a doper who is on their best behavior all the time and never says anything they ‘shouldn’t’, please do.
I’m certainly not pc all the time, and maybe I should be more cognizant of that.
I thought before the primaries that I didn’t want to be involved with all the personality politics, so I visited an election issues website and made a blind choice. It happened to be Obama, although my views coincided with his on only one more issue than with Hillary’s, so I voted for Obama.
But that said, I completely get where Antinor is coming from. I’ll vote for Obama in the general election as I did in the primaries, but I don’t believe Obama is the Second Coming as many here seem to believe. And I am really sick and tired of hearing how much people hate the Clintons, in particular Hillary. We get it. Move on.
I’ll get behind that. I’m starting to get really sick of the “How can Hillary keep on like this?!” discussion, which seems to generate two new threads a day. I don’t have to read them, of course, but the titles still take up space. I’d rather see where Obama goes from here.
It’s not a matter of being “pc.” Ask your mother. Imagine for a moment that everyone who went to Obama speeches felt compelled to comment on his skin tone amd hair texture. Those things are totally irrelevant! No one ever made a big deal out of a candidates skin tone and hair texture before, so why start now? Chances are that most people won’t.
But for some reason, a few people keep harping on the fact that Hillary wears a lot of pantsuits. Twenty or thirty years ago it was not at all uncommon for reporters to comment on the physical appearance of the women that they were covering even thought it didn’t have anything to do with the story. We had gotten away from that somewhat in the last few years, but up it crops again with Hillary’s clothing.
Just for the record, Phlosophr, when I started teaching in 1969, female teachers in Nashville were not allowed to wear pantsuits. Some of us don’t appreciate anyone making a big deal of it again after 38 years.
You show no signs of having had a feminist upbringing. You could have fooled me. Feminists generally don’t give a damn about “political correctness.” They do concern themselves with the promotion of gender equality and fairness. Sometimes language (especially in labelling) affects how we perceive something or someone. I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about any other candidate’s clothing. (And why should you be talking about any candidate’s clothing?) She’s a woman. Get used to it.
Just for the record, Phlosophr, when I started teaching in 1969, female teachers in Nashville were not allowed to wear pantsuits. Some of us don’t appreciate anyone making a big deal of it again after 38 years.
You show no signs of having had a feminist upbringing. You could have fooled me. Feminists generally don’t give a damn about “political correctness.” They do concern themselves with the promotion of gender equality and fairness. Sometimes language (especially in labelling) affects how we perceive something or someone. I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about any other candidate’s clothing. (And why should you be talking about any candidate’s clothing?) She’s a woman. Get used to it.
Now. Go Obama!
Knuckle knock!
[/QUOTE]
Mom is 65, she was in nursing school when everyone was marching or speaking out, and I think for a long, long time she kept her mouth shut to many institutions she disagreed with. I love and respect her highly for the strength she has shown in the last 30 years [I’m in my mid-30’s]. Her resiliance has been eroded over the years but she kept her ideals close to her heart and I love that about her. To this day she remains the strongest woman I know. I don’t know what you mean by ‘not showing signs of having been raised by a feminist.’ As you know better than I not all feminists were bra-burning militants. I would think some of the strongest women were the ones quietly doing what their more vocal counter parts were screaming on the tv and at marches. That was mom, and still is. A fighter she is to the core.
I apologize for my remark.
[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
I apologize for my remark.
[/QUOTE]
From where I’m sitting, Zoe just insulted your mom. You don’t owe her any kind of an apology; on the contrary, she’s being presumptive and condescending to you, criticizing you for an extremely flimsy point.
Talking about Clinton’s sartorial choices isn’t remotely like talking about Obama’s skin color: it’s like talking about his sartorial choices. If someone referred to him as that sunglasses-wearing dude, THAT would be the equivalence. (Strangely, you could also draw an equivalence to a recent comment about John McCain’s skin tone: “his skin appear to have the tone of yellow parchment.”).
Some reporters have overfocused on Clinton’s clothes, yes; that’s obnoxious, yes. But pantsuits are a sartorial choice that makes a statement, and Philosophr was responding to the statement implicit in that choice. He was not criticizing nor deriding her for that statement. Zoe was, predictably, overreacting in a doctrinaire fashion to something happening today based on perceptions solidified thirty years ago, not able to adjust for different circumstances or nuances of meaning.
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
From where I’m sitting, Zoe just insulted your mom. You don’t owe her any kind of an apology; on the contrary, she’s being presumptive and condescending to you, criticizing you for an extremely flimsy point.
Daniel
[/QUOTE]
I know she did. But Zoe and I have spoke at length over the years about different issues, sometimes contesting each other sometimes not. I’m not saying Zoe and I have an understanding, because it’s at times like this that we obviously do not.
I wasn’t making a political statement about Pant Suits…Too bad the remark was taken the wrong way. but that’s OK too, we are all from different walks of life.
[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
I know she did. But Zoe and I have spoke at length over the years about different issues, sometimes contesting each other sometimes not. I’m not saying Zoe and I have an understanding, because it’s at times like this that we obviously do not.
I wasn’t making a political statement about Pant Suits…Too bad the remark was taken the wrong way. but that’s OK too, we are all from different walks of life.
[/QUOTE]
Then–and I say this without a hint of sarcasm–I admire your graciousness.
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
From where I’m sitting, Zoe just insulted your mom. . .But pantsuits are a sartorial choice that makes a statement, …Daniel
[/QUOTE]
Ooh, you’d be a great moderator at a debate. When people have accepted one another’s apologies amicably, you could pipe up and point out imagined insults.
Okay, and what, exactly, statement do pantsuits make?
[QUOTE=Antinor01]
…A number of people I normally respect are going virtually rabid, that gives me pause. Every little thing that he does is considered simply amazing and wonderful, like he’s the second coming. Every little thing that Clinton does means she is satan incarnate and there MUST be some nefarious purpose. I don’t like being associated with that sort of behavior…
[/QUOTE]
Bear in mind it’s been a long seven-and-a-half years…
[QUOTE=Gala Matrix Fire]
Okay, and what, exactly, statement do pantsuits make?
[/QUOTE]
If you are asking why it is derogatory, its a term applied only to females in politics seeking power and its because of the context in which it is used. People have used it to underscore the fact that she is female as they insult her.
I don’t think Zoe has read all of my responses in the political threads. I’ve been notably mild towards Hillary, and have rarely, if ever used the pantsuits comments.
[QUOTE=Gala Matrix Fire]
Ooh, you’d be a great moderator at a debate. When people have accepted one another’s apologies amicably, you could pipe up and point out imagined insults.
[/quote]
:rolleyes: not least because no apologies has been accepted amicably or otherwise, but just in general lame.
Exactly? I dunno; you’d need to ask the person who makes a point of wearing them. Vaguely? I’d say it makes a statement that the woman wearing it doesn’t want to be thought of (when wearing said pantsuit) as primarily a woman, but rather as a member of her chosen profession–and who, at the same time, want to make it clear to you that that’s how they want to be thought of. But then, I’m no expert, nor am I someone who pays any attention to what someone’s wearing; that’s just the vague statement I’d get from it
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
:…I dunno; you’d need to ask the person who makes a point of wearing them.
[/quote]
Makes a point of wearing them? You mean “wears them”? Is wearing them the same as “making a point of wearing them”? When you see a woman in a pantsuit, how do you know which she’s doing, wearing it or making a point of wearing it?
I’m not sure why the second half of your sentence needed to be said.
So the statement is, “I’m a professional, please listen to what I have to say about the subject I get paid to know about.” That’s what men’s business clothing says, too. Why is it different when it’s a woman?
That article has “pantsuit” in the title but then never mentions pantsuits again.
[QUOTE=jayjay]
The absolutely brilliant part of last night was the venue that Obama chose. Do you know what’s going to happen in the XCel Center in September? John McCain is going to accept the nomination of the Republican Party, in the exact same spot that Barack Obama has already accepted the nomination of the Democratic Party 4 months earlier.
[/QUOTE]
With about half the crowd in attendance…on a good day.
If you want Clinton supporters to be enthusiastic for your candidate, you might want to knock off the “pant suit” language. Kind of insulting.
Stick with offering pie. Or better yet, talk to these people, find out what worries them, and do what you can to close that gap.
Obama seriously underperformed among white women above a certain age and among the elderly in general - voters he’ll need in his corner if he has any chance of winning. So bring them in instead of driving them away.
[/QUOTE]
Obama’s campaign should hand-out dresses to the ladies. Not sure why but I’ve acquired a total distaste (and a hopeless lack of libido) over the past few months when seeing women in pant-suits.
[QUOTE=Antinor01]
Like I said, I’m not really that excited about him anyway. In that position it doesn’t take a lot to push it to apathy.
Not to mention that California is basically a lock for democrats right now anyway, so while I wouldn’t go to the point of voting McCain but I don’t know that I can really vote Obama. I probably will, but the attitudes expressed here and in numerous other threads make me wonder if I should.
[/QUOTE]
What ‘attitudes’ exactly – I’ve seen no Elvis thickskull on Obama’s side for instance - are you alluding to? And beyond that, the real question behind your so-called rationale: what is it that bothers you about his policies…never mind any number of assholish supporters (of which Clinton has more than her fair share).
Seriously, you 'tude is way too JHS for me considering the size of the stakes involved.
[QUOTE=Gala Matrix Fire]
So the statement is, “I’m a professional, please listen to what I have to say about the subject I get paid to know about.” That’s what men’s business clothing says, too. Why is it different when it’s a woman?
[/quote]
Really? You’re really asking that?
It’s different because the political world has a tremendously sexist history, in which male participants were considered the default, and their gender wasn’t an issue, whereas women were considered interlopers and suspicious by dint of their gender. Male clothes didn’t need to say anything about “don’t pay attention to my gender as a primary aspect of my persona.” Women’s clothes did.
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
What the hell *happened * to you, anyway?
[/QUOTE]
Funny. RedFury looks exactly the same to me. So does pretty much everyone else. The only person who’s seriously changed since primary season began is…well, you.
