How can a coat of arms have guns on it?

[silenus]

Paul…which one?

[matt_mcl]

@Paul in Saudi

Coats of Arms did not stop in 1066 (or whatever) modern arms are designed and changed all the time.

Actually, coats of arms probably didn’t begin until some time after 1066. One of the very earliest references to it, Geoffrey of Anjou’s grant of arms, dates to 1128.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

Which one? One of the higher numbered outfits. Hard to say as the torpedo never made it to the DUI (the little pins soldiers wear.) Let me check…

(BTW the 25th Australian Light Horse got a machine gun on their crest. Here )

(The 101st Aviation Brigade has a parachute on theirs. Here )

AHA! Found it, the Fighting 58th! (Buncha Newbies)

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@Polycarp

Spectre, I don’t think we’re disagreeing. Here’s my point – I have no claim to the William Wilbor arms I blazoned above, since there are senior heirs before me. As an American, though, I have a right to use heraldic arms, of my own devising, not claiming someone else’s, since the state has not opted to regulate their assumption and use. If I were a Brit, I would be obliged to matriculate a set of arms with the College of Heralds or the Lyon Office, as appropriate, properly differentiated according to their rules – I could not simply assume them as I can here.

That clarification in place, are we in disagreement?

Understood. From this it sounds like there’d be a prescribed differencing for each descendent, so there ought to be a specifically different version of those arms which you could use if you wished, and which the College of Heralds in the old counry would not allow anyone else to use.

[Polycarp]

The English rule according to Arthur Charles Fox-Davies is this:

The eldest son, during the lifetime of the father, bears a “label” of three points (what I described above), and succeeds to the undifferentiated arms of his father on the death of the latter, at which point his son becomes eligible to bear the arms debruised by the label. The second son uses a crescent (points upward), the third son a five-point star, the fourth son a martlet (sparrow with feet not showing), the fifth son an annulet, the sixth son a fleur-de-lys, the seventh son a rose, the eighth son a cross moline, and the ninth son a double quatrefoil. All these marks are to be put in “the center chief point” – i.e., centered on about 17% of the way down the shield on the vertical midline. The male-line grandsons use marks-on-marks as appropriate, e.g., the third son of the second son would use a star on a crescent.

An illegitimate child has no right to arms, but must matriculate arms himself (or his heirs in his behalf). And the above does not apply to the Royal Arms, which have their own differentiation system.

Scottish arms are differentiated at the will of the Lord Lyon, and one is not entitled to bear his father’s arms with differentiation without having matriculated them. But the system there is one of borders and variants on the charges, which gets extremely complicated. And apparently something similar to the Scottish system is in use on the Continent, insofar as anyone there pays attention to it.

[PaulFitzroy]

What does this word I keep hearing, “matriculate,” mean? It sounds somewhat dirty…

[Polycarp]

@PaulFitzroy

What does this word I keep hearing, “matriculate,” mean? It sounds somewhat dirty…

Snerk! There’s an apocryphal story of a dirty political campaign somewhere in the Deep South, where the demogogue who won accused his opponent: “And when he went North to college, I have it on good evidence that he matriculated in public, right in front of the Registrar – and when he met his wife there, she was a practicing Thespian.”

To “matriculate” in this usage is to formally file a claim to a set of heraldic arms, in the form of a petition, before the appropriate authority for validating that claim. An Englishman would take his claim to the College of Arms, a Scotsman to the Lyon Office, an Irishman (IIRC) to the Irish Heraldic Office in Dublin, matt_mcl to the Canadian Heraldic Office, etc.

[matt_mcl]

@Polycarp

To “matriculate” in this usage is to formally file a claim to a set of heraldic arms, in the form of a petition, before the appropriate authority for validating that claim. An Englishman would take his claim to the College of Arms, a Scotsman to the Lyon Office, an Irishman (IIRC) to the Irish Heraldic Office in Dublin, matt_mcl to the Canadian Heraldic Office, etc.

Yes. There’s a different procedure, too, depending on whether you are claiming the right to use arms that you inherited, or registering an entirely new coat.

[Governor_Quinn]

@Polycarp

There’s an apocryphal story of a dirty political campaign somewhere in the Deep South, where the demogogue who won accused his opponent: “And when he went North to college, I have it on good evidence that he matriculated in public, right in front of the Registrar – and when he met his wife there, she was a practicing Thespian.”

[hijack]

This would be the 1950 Florida Democratic primary between incumbent Senator Claude Pepper (the man accused of these charges) and challenger George Smathers (who made the charges, and won the election).

On the one hand, Time listed these and others as claims that Smathers had made. One the other hand, Smathers claimed that the reporter who wrote the article made it up.

I haven’t a clue as to who’s right.

[/hijack]