Many of us grew up believing in God as the default, and had full religious instruction. I didn’t stop believing until I read the full Bible, really read it, and analyzed it logically. Today someone who doubts will find books on the best seller list - 35 years ago, when I stopped believing in god, there weren’t any such things. BTW, there was nothing evil or upsetting about my religious experience, no damnation or insults or calls to stop thinking. It was rather enjoyable, really. I stopped believing for purely logical reasons.
And do you know you will be in heaven as opposed to just non existent, or is this something you just believe? I trust you were influenced by others. do you believe out of logic, or out of tradition, or out of faith?
In most cases, the atheists and agnostics on this board were raised by devout Christians who desperately tried to make them follow what they thought was the Truth.
Do you honestly think that we do not believe in God because it is somehow an easier choice? If anything, you’ve made the easier choice - to place absolute faith in an entity that you cannot see, cannot feel, cannot prove to be true or false, but to go forward in your days fully believing that you are a special person who has an eternal reward. I’d love to believe that. I really would.
But I can’t. Because there’s no proof to it. The only thing to it is a book that was written two-thousand years ago, is full of contradictions, and which is no more provably the Word than the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita.
You worship God and believe in heaven because that’s what you want to be the case. I’d love to follow you, but I recognize that what I want the universe to be and what it actually is are very different things. Otherwise, I could eat ice cream all day long and not get fat.
Does that make it okay for God to refrain from alleviating the years of suffering that some people endure during this “flash”?
That’s nice fo you. Will he refrain from inflicting the tortures of Hell on me then, whether I believe in him or not, because he loves me as much as you? If he does not so refrain, can he really be said to care for us equally? Actions do speak louder than words.
I was raised on a, if not atheist at last very lapsed christian family; as in no prayers, church or anything. My only contact with religion was when I attended some courses and camping trips organized by none other than the Opus Dei, I was attentive to what they said but trying to infuse me with a religious fervor is like trying to ram the square peg on the round hole.
It ain´t going to happen unless I switch off my brain and stop thinking by myself.
The working processes in my mind are not compatible with the concepts of deity and religion as expressed by organized religions; there are some things I can take on faith, but I can´t take such an amorphous, contradictory and self serving ammount as a religion needs.
To be more explicit I firmly believe that all religions are a load of bull, born out of human psichological necessities, fears and ignorance. The offspring of dark ages when people knew next to nothing about the inner workings of nature, couple that with the need to find an order in all that, a prime motive and cause, and you get people coming up with absurd interpretations and clueless masses listening to them. Lightning? god did it!, earthquakes?, god did it!, got flu? god did it too because you haven´t done what I say he wants you to do…
That may sound harsh but just look at the World today the new religions you see appearing are by and large scams (think scientiology), but their tennents aren´t all that more rational or logic than those of traditional religions and yet people embrace them all the same. Why should scientiology be more credible to me than christianity, greek mythology or Chtulu? where have all the forgotten gods went?, why this god is The God while all the rest are pagan falsehoods?
Religions have come and gone, gods have passed away and and yet the world is still turning as it was under Og, Ra, Inti, Zeus, etc… or long before anyone had heard about the judeo-islamic-christian god for what is worth.
I teach IN YOUR FACE THEOLGY. You have gotten the readers didgest edition of my class. I use the simplest form, the smallest words so all can comprehend, street talk you might say. Go back read all my posts you may now start to understand what i am trying to say. How often in your life do you think of God when things are going well? Is he on the front burner or the back? Let something go wrong ( the 2x4) bingo I bet he is now on the front burner. Did you ever get into a situation where you felt no way out and asked God please get me through this and I!ll change? When the crisis passed did you keep your word or did you go back to status quo? God is closer to us when we suffer. Thats when you can feel the loving hand of God embracing us most. Still don!t beleive me, do you want to feel it and be witness to it? Visit the places I visit on a regular basis and see. Go to your nearest nursing home get off the elevator and first see the blank stares of the residents. Yes the residents, you know the ones who have been given the sentence of life without parole. The ones that only way out will be with a death certificate. Sit down and talk to a stranger watch the smile on their face as they ramble of stories of 50 years ago but can!t remember what happened yesterday. Look deep into their eyes and be witness then ask them about God. Take your own survey. Still don!t beleive then do the same at your nearest hospitol or school whose students all have down syndrome.
Holocaust in America: Log on to any web site to photographs of viable babies aborted after the 26th week and look and think. You can be pro-life or pro-choice ( that sounds so nice don!t it? pro-choice = killing) can you honestly say its not legal murder? If a loving women can kill her own child in her own womb then there are no evils in the world that man is capable of. Do you think that in this country of such freedoms that our fore fathers wanted this to be the law? Its the gray area someones intepretation of the law. Debate the 2nd amendment. Priest I think not, religious zealot I think not, someone trying to help mankind I!m trying with all I have. Can I reach everyone absolutely not and I!m not trying to nor am I trying to force religion on anyone. Teaching theolgy is simple: you take some grass seed throw it on the lawn some seed takes and some dies and then you move on. Sorry this was so long but I have classes the rest of the day and this weekend I must visit the people I mentioned above.
Small words are not the only key to comprehensibility, nor are they the key to street talk.
I love cooking, so if you’ll pardon the tangent: when you boil up God, do you conk him on the head first? Or is God sort of like lobster, where cooking Him live results in a better flavor and texture?
Huh?
I sure can: honestly, it’s not legal murder. Can you go down to the local slaughterhouse and say the same thing?
You’d think God might have mentioned that in Exodus, given all the other things he went on about. Did he just forget or something?
I sure do: during the 18th century, there were no laws against abortion in our country, although the technology was widely known. Do you think they just forgot or something? I mean, seriously, what on earth would you posit as evidence that the founding fathers had a beef with abortion?
It’s really not that simple. If you’re truly honest with yourself, you’ll look down in your hand and try to figure out: is that grass seed or herbicide? Because from here on the lawn, it looks like you’re throwing herbicide.
You can, of course, reject that, smug in your theological superiority; but that won’t be an honest, self-reflective response. If you’re brave, you’ll look at what’s in your hand and really think hard about what you’re doing.
We’ve gotten the Reader’s Digest version of the OP’s class? That’s a real insult to RD. What we’re getting here is more along the lines of the hit-and-run, sound bite, short-attention-span, non-critical thinking, posting-just-for-the-heck-of-it version.
Neither, actually. The only times I think about God is when i’m reminded of Christianity in some way, which is probably about as often as i’m reminded of many religions (and atheism)
Actually - I have done this. As an atheist, I recognise the fact that a god might exist, and in times of trouble I have made general prayers to any gods that happen to be in the area on the off chance they exist.
And yet… he doesn’t stop the suffering. So God’s a voyeur, too?
I do not feel that hand ever, actually.
Er, what exactly is your point, here? People who are going to die or have severe problems believe in God? Well, gee shucks, most people in America are Christian, so I wouldn’t let that surprise you. Do something for me - go to a nursing home in Turkey, and do what you advised. See how many of them expound on their faith in God.
There are websites of aborted baby photos? Ew.
Pro-choice = legal slavery. Hey, I can make accurate but bad sounding definitions too! Yay!
I can honestly say it’s not legal murder because fetuses are not accredited the rights of a person in law. If you’re speaking morally, fetueses are people.
Well, that just doesn’t make any sense, even from your own opinion. A male abortion doctor would be doing the same “evil”.
I think the fore fathers wanted law that let them have a good legislative session and then go home and bang a few slaves.
*The * grey area? I think you’ll find there are many grey areas, mon ami.
I don’t know if you’re a priest or a religious zealot. You might be both. There’s not enough information to say, IMHO.
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Can I reach everyone absolutely not and I!m not trying to nor am I trying to force religion on anyone. [/QUOUTEIf you vote for anti-abortion politicians, then yes, you are.
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But by not sticking around, you don’t get to see if your seed is damaged, or even dead. Surely you should evaluate your own evangelism?
That survey would simply indicate the percentage of people in that situation who believe in God. It says nothing about the existence of God. Does the fact that some people truly believe that the CIA is beaming mind-control beams into their heads mean that such mind-control beams really exist?
You’re suggesting that because someone is mentally handicapped they have more knowledge of the divine that those that are not mentally handicapped? Hmmm…
Your IN Your Face Theology doesn’t sound like good theology to me, just a bunch of babble.
One could pray to a carrot, rabbit, or a rock or anything for that matter,if the thing happened, one could say: carrot, rock, or rabbit heard my prayer if not then the reply could be,Carrot, Rabbit or rock said no. An all knowing God would know what you needed and if it was given or withheld; it would be accepted by one that it was best for the person.
To answer some questions rwgarding my post. Thank you to those who welcomed me! Of course it is eaier to be a Christian if raised in a Christian homw and growing up with knowledge of the teachings of the Bible. That is the reason I asked! If raised om a non believing home that is the direction the children will go. Our public school system has become very anti-Christian over the past thirty years. NOne of you can deny that, in my opinion or if you do only becasue you choose to be obstinate! Ask yourself WHY? That is always the question I ask. Is it because you and they consider yourselves intellectually superior to those of us who was raised when Christianity was accepted within the public schools? Perhaps todays education has some advanatages over ours but what we have is the years of living experience and most of all our memories! With those memories and living has come knowledge! Tell me why it is in our society today is the senior citizens not respected for that living kinowledge through memory and experience? Do you respect the older members of your family? Do you like to chat with them about their lives and what they have experienced or would you pay more attention to a college professors or someone else that you consider an expert?
Someone asked me about evil in regards to our Lord. My answer is simple–I DON’T KNOW BUT I WILL KNOW IN THE FUTURE AND THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME! No two human beings are alike and none of us think the same, even siblings. Each has different personalities even when we share the same DNA, some are fearful, others agressive, while some are timisd. I am a challenger, an agressive person, I want answers and I will be more than willing to ask Why when I get to heaven. Maybe I won’t need too, maybe I will just automatically understand, I have looked for answers in the Bible and I don’t find them to my satisfication but the Bible tells me I must believe through Faith. Yes my Lord, has spoken to me. Did he tap me on the shoulder and say in English, “Ruth let’s have a little talk”, No he didn’t but he did communicate with me and I had no doubt in my mind that it was he! I still don’t and I will share that experience with you. In the Christian world it is known as witnessing. My younger sister who was ten yrs younger than I was dying from cancer. She lived in Texas and I in California. Early one morning I was standing in my front door having a cup of cofee and a cigarette>{yes the Lord loves even Christians with nasty habits}, I was extremely agitated, worried and upset over her! I wanted to go see her while I could still talk to her and not wait to go to say goodbye at a funeral, this was very important to me. I needed to know that her faith was strong within her and that she would be alright! But I was also afraid. It was in October, winter time coming and I would have to drive as my husband now 74 almost 75 got extremely nervous and anixious over the heavy taffic and driving. We were both getting on up there in age and both of us not feeling stron and indedpendent as we once did. The message entered my mind or my heart, I don’t which “it will be OK, you go”! I told my husband wjhen he got up that we were going and two days later we were on the road to Texas! He checked my car over, we got the money we needed from the bank and of course carried a credit card! You younger generation have come up with some great things and I compliment you! Not to mention computer expertise! Which I often need help with. Anyway we traveled across country and when we stopped for the night in Arizonia and awoke the next morning. I qwas up by 4 AM and we high tailed it on accross the continental divide and it was just starting to snow as we hit the high passes before coming down into N. Mexico. We stopped for coffee and breakfast over in N. Mexico and heard from truck drivers that within an hour to two hours after we crossed that the road was closed. NObody eill ever convince me that my Lord wasn’g traveling with me. I wa able to see my sister, to satisfy my mind and we returned safety home. Within two months after being back my husband was diagnosed with his final illenss and I lost him in Sept of the next year, which was Sept. 2005 after my sisters death in Nov. of 2004! We had been married fifty years and NO HE WAS NOT THIS WONDERFUL MAN! He was not very romantic, many times I wanted to thump his selfish head but I knew that I was the one who had spoiled him rotten in those 50 yrs. I spent married to him and that you have to lvie with what you created! God didn’t have a thing to do with that, he may have sent him along to me but I am the one responsible for ruining him, just as I am responsible for spoiling my two sons and my grandchildren! He does give us free will and I use my will freely, don’t we all?
Still, I wouldn’t go back and chcange my life one bit. Nor do I worry about my death, I just ask my Lord to let me go swiftly and with as little pain as possible, just as I ask for my beloved husband and he died auietly in his sleep. Thank you Lored! I wish that when I die I could come backor in some way send you a message of hope and anwsers but it has never been so and I don’t think that will change. You must believe because you want too and have the faith too.
Ruth, you have given us a great deal to think about. A great deal. I must admit that quality of your argument has changed my mind and I now find my initial statement to be in error.
It is your faith,not Jesus or God that got you though. and your faith has helped you, but I know a lot of others that it didn’t work out for( until they began to accept life as it came).
Faith is like a medicine what works for one does not work for all and in some cases if not the right medicine it can be harmful, such as the case of the terroists,it was not their religion, but the way they used it that caused themselves and others harm. Belief is a personal thing and if a person’s faith helps them to be a better, happier,more tolerant person then it is good for that individual.
As a P.S. Rut:,The public schools are not anti Christian, public schools must remain just that public. It is a parents choice to teach their child religion at home.
We have separation of Church and State for a good reason. What would happen if another religion became the majority? Look at what happened before our ancestors came to this country;they got away from religious tyrany and then started burning witches at stake etc. .
Worrying about Christianiy being taken away from a person is just a lack of faith, The first Christians were in the minority, ahd little if any public display but that didn’t make them feel picked on, or worry about their religion being taken away. Their religion was inside their self not dependent on what others believed.
I just had to comment on this. Some here have said we are just super monkeys please don!t insult the monkeys. Female monkeys or any other LAND animal does not kill their own babies for convenience. Maybe this is just evolution? Did you ever think that suffering maybe is also part of living?
Uh, yeah they do–I guess you’ve never had hamsters for pets, or else you would have seen mother hamsters eating their babies for convenience. Mother rabbits spontaneously abort their fetuses if they think it’s going to be difficult to care for them. (Or, rather, if their bodies “think” that–it’s not a conscious choice, obviously). Nature’s not nice.
Ruth Skidmore, I gotta say I like your way of witnessing better than that “in your face” stuff, which seems more likely to drive the audience away than to reel them in. I found your post to be non-offensive and fairly friendly.
My response to it is: I don’t think there has been religion in schools in my lifetime, and I don’t think there should be. That is a matter for the parents to teach, or not, as they choose. I don’t respect older people merely because they’re old, any more than I respect young people because they’re young. I like listening to older people talk about their experiences, but for a specific answer I would consider a professor of the field to be a more certain source. The tale of your trip, including the narrow avoidance of being snowed in, is interesting but does not sound miraculous or requiring of God in any way, so I do not find it persuasive theologically. Congratulations on having what sounds like a full life, and I wish you well.
Oh, and johnny M? Unless suffering is also part of living when you’re in heaven, then there’s no particular reason to think it’s necessary on earth. The fact that there is suffering on earth is reason enough to doubt that there is an all-powerful all-knowing being that would prefer we weren’t suffering.