Why does God Permit....

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@CarnalK

Well, when the starving babies, gang rapes and genocides are pointed out Christians just say “God works in mysterious ways”. I guess it’s hopeless.

Yes it is hopeless to understand . We Christians can explain it in a myriad of ways but it is still a mystery for us.

St. Paul gives me the best handle on the conundrum of a loving God creating such a cruel world in the following passage:

… consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.** For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. **
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves,…

bolding mine
So for some reason, to get to Utopia, we all have to go through this crap. Who am I to challenge the wisdom of God ?

I also try to develop some perspective of a loving superior life form’s actions towards humanity in terms of a loving human’s attitude towards lower life forms and find conundrums there as well.

For example there are lots of animal loving people who support the preservation of carnivorous species who maim and kill completely innocent harmless herbivores. I’m pretty sure that if Bambi could post, that Bambi would find that mysterious as well. Let’s face it, nobody hear views the imminent disappearance of the murderous Polar Bear as anything other than a tragedy. The Polar Bear is not even an ecological neccessity, being at the top of the food chain. More to the point, I believe we could eliminate all carnivores and omnivores, refrain from eating herbivores and the world would be a lot nicer place for a start. But I’m not buying that and I still think I’m a loving animal.

[kanicbird]

@CarnalK

Well, when the starving babies, gang rapes and genocides are pointed out Christians just say “God works in mysterious ways”. I guess it’s hopeless.

We have fallen and are not worthy of God’s mercy. But God will allow you to come back, only if you want to however - so it’s not hopeless.

@The Flying Dutchman

So for some reason, to get to Utopia, we all have to go through this crap. Who am I to challenge the wisdom of God ?

In our present state of sin we are not capable of utopia, it can’t exist for us where we are and we have NO RIGHT to expect it with our own works.

More to the point, I believe we could eliminate all carnivores and omnivores, refrain from eating herbivores and the world would be a lot nicer place for a start.

Well history has proven you wrong, eliminate the predators and the prey overpopulate and starve. Now if we can greatly increase the popularity of hunting, I would be all for eliminating some of the predators, and I find hunting a much healthier way to get food, and also IMHO is better for the animals then commercial farming.

[Anduril]

@The Flying Dutchman

Yes it is hopeless to understand . We Christians can explain it in a myriad of ways but it is still a mystery for us.

St. Paul gives me the best handle on the conundrum of a loving God creating such a cruel world in the following passage:

bolding mine
So for some reason, to get to Utopia, we all have to go through this crap. Who am I to challenge the wisdom of God ?

I also try to develop some perspective of a loving superior life form’s actions towards humanity in terms of a loving human’s attitude towards lower life forms and find conundrums there as well.

For example there are lots of animal loving people who support the preservation of carnivorous species who maim and kill completely innocent harmless herbivores. I’m pretty sure that if Bambi could post, that Bambi would find that mysterious as well. Let’s face it, nobody hear views the imminent disappearance of the murderous Polar Bear as anything other than a tragedy. The Polar Bear is not even an ecological neccessity, being at the top of the food chain. More to the point, I believe we could eliminate all carnivores and omnivores, refrain from eating herbivores and the world would be a lot nicer place for a start. But I’m not buying that and I still think I’m a loving animal.

Your analogy doesn’t work because we’re not omnipotent. If you have the capacity (with the flick of a finger) to change the nature of these beasts and still maintain balance in the ecosystem, would you mind it so much if you flick that finger? If not, why not?

Most non-theists have no problem with the idea of carnivores brutalizing herbivores because they do not have a belief in this omnipotent God.

[Der_Trihs]

@The Flying Dutchman

Yes it is hopeless to understand . We Christians can explain it in a myriad of ways but it is still a mystery for us.

It’s not a mystery for unbelievers. They whole idea of an omnipotent, loving god who allows all the evil and misery we see to occur simply makes no sense. It’s not a “mystery”; it’s simply a stupid idea that Christians can’t bring themselves to admit is stupid.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

@The Flying Dutchman

So for some reason, to get to Utopia, we all have to go through this crap. Who am I to challenge the wisdom of God ?

You - and I - are the ones who actually have to do the suffering. God, on the other hand, is not. The God St Paul describes is an evil God who tortures humanity for their own good, without bothering to ask permission. The sort of God we’d be better off killing, if we could, not worshiping.

It’s also pointless, since he could have just made us “worthy” to enter his “paradise” in the first place; he’s torturing us because of his own poor craftsmanship. A totally uncaring God would be far better.

[Canadjun]

@kanicbird

We have fallen and are not worthy of God’s mercy. But God will allow you to come back, only if you want to however - so it’s not hopeless.

A starving baby who has never had any opportunity to learn The One True Religion™ is not worthy of God’s mercy? God will allow me to come back? To where? If I’m “coming back” then I must have been where I am coming back to at some place in the past (otherwise I would be coming to, not coming back).

The Christian God is a non-merciful (no matter what the crime on earth it still has finite impact; most Christian descriptions I’ve read posit infinite punishment in Hell for these finite crimes), sado-masochistic deity (sadistic at least given the torments he allows people to go through on earth even ignoring Hell, masochistic since the trinitarian concept says that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one, and one of those three met a rather unpleasant demise) to my way of thinking.

As is probably obvious, I’m definitely not Christian and am basically atheist or agnostic (depends which day you ask me ). The only faith system I’d be willing to consider is deism (some guy up there starting things up and then leaving them completely alone to see what happens).

[kanicbird]

@Canadjun

The Christian God is a non-merciful (no matter what the crime on earth it still has finite impact; most Christian descriptions I’ve read posit infinite punishment in Hell for these finite crimes),

Then you miss the point. There is a war in our time between the forces of God and the Devil. God can and does win in the end, but is holding off on the ‘nuclear option’ so to speak because he wants us to take sides, we are allowed via free will to join the forces of God or the Devil. Also remember that God is not a signatory of the Geneva Convention and all is fair in war. Right now we are ‘allowed’ to straddle between both forces, but there will come a time when we will be forced to choose:

@Revelations 3:14-16

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God’s creation, says these things:

"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.

So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth.

It is not totally clear that anyone besides the false prophet, The Beast and the Devil will be tormented day and night forever, but a case can be made for those who accept the Mark of the Beast.

@Revelations 20:10

The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

*Note the Devil was thrown into the lake about 1000 years after the beast and false prophet, so they were in that lake for some time (or will be).

But the tormented day and night part are left out for Death and Hades and anyone not found in the book of life.

@Revelations 20:14-15

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire

But here is does mention that it will be the second death:

@Revelations 21:8

But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

But then we have this:

@Revelations 14:9-11

Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand,

he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Which has to do with the people who were alive at the time of the mark of the beast’s availability, and who accepted it. There is some debate if it really is eternal torment for these people, or the smoke goes on forever.

The above is just my limited understanding of a very difficult book of the Bible. I’m sure there are different translations of the above also.

[Contrapuntal]

@kanicbird

Then you miss the point. There is a war in our time between the forces of God and the Devil. God can and does win in the end, but is holding off on the ‘nuclear option’ so to speak because he wants us to take sides, we are allowed via free will to join the forces of God or the Devil.

If the end is pre-determined, how can free will be an element of it?

[kanicbird]

@Contrapuntal

If the end is pre-determined, how can free will be an element of it?

Humanity’s free will choice who to serve is the factor that is delaying the end. At the time grows near we will be forced to chose sides. But even if humanity totally went with the side of the Devil it would not change the outcome of the war.

IMHO

[Revenant_Threshold]

@kanicbird

Also remember that God is not a signatory of the Geneva Convention and all is fair in war.

May I please use this as a sigline?

[kanicbird]

Sorry my herbivore was done cooking, so had to rush things a bit, but getting back to:

@Canadjun

A starving baby who has never had any opportunity to learn The One True Religion™ is not worthy of God’s mercy?

Remember the order, God is higher then the angles (and demons) and they are higher then man, and animals are under us. We are pretty low on the totem pole. Do you own mercy to a mouse? What about something even lower then a animal? That’s where we fit on that pole. Why does God owe us anything?

God will allow me to come back? To where? If I’m “coming back” then I must have been where I am coming back to at some place in the past (otherwise I would be coming to, not coming back).

Well there is the part of God knowing you before you were in the womb, but IIRC that does not mean that you knew God. I would accept the term coming to in absents of contradictory scripture.

sadistic at least given the torments he allows people to go through on earth

What about the torment he actively will engage in:

@Revelations 16:1

I heard a loud voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God on the earth!”

But that was long coming:

@Leviticus 19:18

’ You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

And some other places in the Bible it shows not to take vengeance, but that is reserved for God Himself:

@Romans 12:19

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

So yes the forces of the Devil are currently allowed to run amok, but the toll of God’s wrath is building, perhaps (a WAG I just had - that the end time will be triggered when the wrath of God as written in Revelations is equal to the vengeance that God owes the Devil’s forces.)

[kanicbird]

@Revenant Threshold

May I please use this as a sigline?

Feel free

[Contrapuntal]

@kanicbird

Humanity’s free will choice who to serve is the factor that is delaying the end. At the time grows near we will be forced to chose sides. But even if humanity totally went with the side of the Devil it would not change the outcome of the war.

IMHO

This seems a bit dodgy. My question is – how can free will be an element of a system where the outcome is pre-determined? Your answer is that free will is a part of such a system. Begs the question, right?

Free will implies chance. Chance implies uncertainty. There is no uncertainty when the outcome is pre-determined. Or are you suggesting that God does not know how each human will choose?

[kanicbird]

@Contrapuntal

This seems a bit dodgy. My question is – how can free will be an element of a system where the outcome is pre-determined? Your answer is that free will is a part of such a system.

I don’t have a scriptural answer, The closest one is that Jesus is the only one worthy to open the seven seals on the scroll.

[QUOTE=Revelations5:2 I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book, and to break its seals?” [/QUOTE]

Which gets to this:

@Revelations5:12

saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who has been killed to receive the power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing!”

Jesus it the one that will (or has) break the seals of this book.

As each seal is broken a different woe occurs, including the 4 horseman.

This is speculation in a attempt to answer your question, but that book may be the unfolding of human (future) history, which is unknown to Jesus till he breaks the seal.

How can God not know something? I don’t know but we have:

@Mark 15:34

At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, " ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

Which seems to indicate that Jesus was not expecting to be forsaken by the Father.

Another way it could be done is for God to live in a timeless dimension, where everything already happens.

[Der_Trihs]

@kanicbird

Also remember that God is not a signatory of the Geneva Convention and all is fair in war.

No, it is not. All you are doing is saying that humans are morally superior to God.

@kanicbird

Do you own mercy to a mouse?

Yes. That’s why laws exist against animal cruelty.

@kanicbird

What about something even lower then a animal? That’s where we fit on that pole. Why does God owe us anything?

Because he’s the one who chose to make us what we are, and place us in as flawed a world as this. Not only does he owe us consideration as sentient beings, he owes us reparations.

@kanicbird

Which seems to indicate that Jesus was not expecting to be forsaken by the Father.

Another way it could be done is for God to live in a timeless dimension, where everything already happens.

Or that he found out the hard way that God is either nonexistant, uncaring or cruel.

[kanicbird]

Don’t have time right now Der Trihs, running out, but Happy New Year to ALL!

[AHunter3]

First of all, we are manifestations of God. God is doing this “being the universe (including you)” thing because the activity in its entirety is satisfying to God. That apparently includes God’s experience of things as viewed/experienced from your particular perspective, including the pain misery trials tribulations and so on. And also those of whatever poor unfortunates, baby rape victims, genocide victims, etc, may provoke people to wonder what the fuck is wrong with God anyhow that God should permit such a thing.

Having said that, the overall status quo of world-as-we-know-it may be very much in transition, or the plot of the universe-movie is going through one of its tension-building fingernail-biting phases, to be reconciled by the Good Guys Winning in a later reel. And if aspects of the status quo bother you in just the right ways, you might be cast in a part (bit part, lead role, or anywhere in between) in that Good Guys Winning chapter.

[GIGObuster]

@kanicbird

Then you miss the point. There is a war in our time between the forces of God and the Devil. God can and does win in the end, but is holding off on the ‘nuclear option’ so to speak because he wants us to take sides, we are allowed via free will to join the forces of God or the Devil. Also remember that God is not a signatory of the Geneva Convention and all is fair in war. Right now we are ‘allowed’ to straddle between both forces, but there will come a time when we will be forced to choose:

I agree with Contrapuntal, all that is a bit dodgy, as I mentioned before in a different thread, dozens of generations have come and gone being told the same, and once one adds deep time into the mix, all that sounds even sillier.

As for the book of revelation, I do have to point out that it was this close on becoming part of the apocrypha, but it was included in the end because it was reinterpreted as a symbolic book, not a literal one. Point being that it does sound weird that modern protestant faiths are grabbing the same book to then apply it to future events, the church of the day knew what revelation was actually referring to.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/brevelation.html

As long as the empire was pagan, Rome could be an historical stand in for Babylon. After all, that’s what the text of apocalypse says. The awkwardness for Christianity, with its own apocalyptic heritage, comes with Christianity’s political success. When Constantine converts to one, remember, just one form of Christianity … in 312, from the perspective of John, the writer of Apocalypse, the beast has entered the church. But from the point of view of Eusebius, one of Constantine’s Bishops, it’s God’s working in history. It’s the revelation of the messianic peace that Isaiah talked about. From Eusebius’ perspective–I mean we’re used to thinking of the empire being Christian, they weren’t, it just happened in their lifetime–this is an unthinkable thought and yet it occurs.

So Eusebius, looking at these traditional apocalyptic texts, knows that the traditional apocalyptic reading has to be wrong, because now the empire is Christian. …The empire isn’t God’s opponent, and therefore, interpretations that look at these text as speaking about God defeating the evil empire of Rome are clearly wrong interpretations, because now God’s servant is himself the emperor.

So what Eusebius will do is, he’s one of a number of Christians who begin to discredit an apocalyptic frame of mind, now that Christianity, in a sense, with the consolidation of power under Constantine, settles down into history. Apocalypticism, for people who are prepared to settle down into history, is something that is old fashioned, is clearly wrong and is therefore heresy.

Is there a move to exclude Apocalypse from the New Testament?

The Book of the Apocalypse has a checkered career in the history of the New Testament canon. Canons themselves are local. In some places in the empire, Apocalypse is in the collection, in other places it isn’t. … Different cities have different gospels, and there is no central power, so there is no single agreed upon canon. What you get when you have the Constantinian revolution is a principled opposition to the Book of Apocalypse. Once the weight of communities decide that the book is going to be kept in the collection, then your option is no longer to drop the text, your option is to reinterpret it, and that’s what people do next.

[Der_Trihs]

@AHunter3

First of all, we are manifestations of God. God is doing this “being the universe (including you)” thing because the activity in its entirety is satisfying to God. That apparently includes God’s experience of things as viewed/experienced from your particular perspective, including the pain misery trials tribulations and so on. And also those of whatever poor unfortunates, baby rape victims, genocide victims, etc, may provoke people to wonder what the fuck is wrong with God anyhow that God should permit such a thing.

Having said that, the overall status quo of world-as-we-know-it may be very much in transition, or the plot of the universe-movie is going through one of its tension-building fingernail-biting phases, to be reconciled by the Good Guys Winning in a later reel. And if aspects of the status quo bother you in just the right ways, you might be cast in a part (bit part, lead role, or anywhere in between) in that Good Guys Winning chapter.

That sounds like a philosophy designed to justify utter sociopathy; in fact, it’s close to solipsism. By that argument, standing by and masturbating while a child burns to death is perfectly fine, because no harm’s been done; God just wants to experience a child burning to death and a man masturbating. People don’t really matter, because we are all fake anyway; just God’s shadow puppets.

[kanicbird]

Well my car had other ideas, so no big New Years Eve night tonight for me.

@Der Trihs

No, it is not. All you are doing is saying that humans are morally superior to God.

Well I disagree with you and think that all is fair in war, which then contradicts your statement that humans are morally superior.

Yes. That’s why laws exist against animal cruelty.

OK so we have laws that make you responsible for a mouse that you don’t even know, and lives in a place where you don’t? Can you cite a law for me?

Because he’s the one who chose to make us what we are, and place us in as flawed a world as this. Not only does he owe us consideration as sentient beings, he owes us reparations.

Not capitalizing the pronouns used for God is a bit confusing to read, it is customary to even if you don’t believe.

What do you mean He’s the one who chose to make is what we are? I know we are made in His image, but that’s not the same thing. He didn’t place us anywhere, He did kick us (humanity) out of His garden, when we (A&E) disobeyed Him. Our disobedience just meant we could no longer live with him, it doesn’t mean he placed us in this world. (though I do vaguely recall there may be something along those lines in scripture, but don’t recall where, so there may be some placing, but perhaps not- if anyone can help me out)

Owes us reparations? I think you listen to Al Sharpton and Lewis Farican to much.
Does God owe us consideration? Well He doesn’t owe us anything, but gives us the chance to be worthy of being welcome in His kingdom, which sounds pretty darn considerate, us being a mouse in a field somewhere.

Or that he found out the hard way that God is either nonexistant, uncaring or cruel.

God does seem capable of being cruel, and I can understand the uncaring part, though this is the most caring part of God to humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanicbird
Then you miss the point. There is a war in our time between the forces of God and the Devil. God can and does win in the end, but is holding off on the ‘nuclear option’ so to speak because he wants us to take sides, we are allowed via free will to join the forces of God or the Devil. Also remember that God is not a signatory of the Geneva Convention and all is fair in war. Right now we are ‘allowed’ to straddle between both forces, but there will come a time when we will be forced to choose:
I agree with Contrapuntal, all that is a bit dodgy, as I mentioned before in a different thread, dozens of generations have come and gone being told the same, and once one adds deep time into the mix, all that sounds even sillier.

@GIGObuster

As for the book of revelation, I do have to point out that it was this close on becoming part of the apocrypha, but it was included in the end because it was reinterpreted as a symbolic book, not a literal one.

OK you pointed it out, but it’s still part of the Bible, which is our guide to God.

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by kanicbird
Then you miss the point. There is a war in our time between the forces of God and the Devil. God can and does win in the end, but is holding off on the ‘nuclear option’ so to speak because he wants us to take sides, we are allowed via free will to join the forces of God or the Devil. Also remember that God is not a signatory of the Geneva Convention and all is fair in war. Right now we are ‘allowed’ to straddle between both forces, but there will come a time when we will be forced to choose:
I agree with Contrapuntal, all that is a bit dodgy, as I mentioned before in a different thread, dozens of generations have come and gone being told the same, and once one adds deep time into the mix, all that sounds even sillier.

This one didn’t make the first cut.

I was going to say read my above reply in post #13