In numerous posts I see people who proclaim themselves “Christians” saying that they too believe Evolution to be correct. They go on to say that they see no conflict between these two beliefs. My problems is this: As I undestand it, the ***most basic ** * premise of Christianity is that “God” created man. So, if God did create man, then there is no reason to believe in Evolution. And if God did not create man then there is no reason to be Christian. This seems very simple and straight forward. Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance for you replies.
The most basic premise of Christianity is that we should love one another. “Love, and do what you like.” — Saint Augustine
You have a misunderstanding of Christianity. The most basic premise of Christianity is that Jesus’ death saved humanity from sin. It has nothing to do with who did or didn’t create man.
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As has been observed The creation account is not the heart of Christianity; the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ are far closer.
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There are a hundred different ways of reconciling Genesis with evolution if one cares to do so. One is to simply posit that evolution is the process which God chose to use.
Yes. You are missing something.
This does not necessarily follow. Anyway, Evolution is not something to “believe” in - it’s not a faith in competition with Christianity. The theory of evolution is an artifact of science; belief in a purposeful creation is an artifact of faith. The logical fallacy is in believing the two are mutually exclusive.
I’m not a Christian, so I might be wrong, but it seems to me that if Christianity has a most basic premise, it’s that God sent his son to earth as Jesus, so that through his life, death, and resurrection, people could be saved from damnation and enjoy a better way to live on earth and an eternity of joy with God in heaven. The details of how Jesus went about doing that and who gets to go to heaven differ among denominations of course, but it seems to me that that’s the basic view.
And it would seem that most Christians believe in evolution because it seems to them to be the most likely way that life got to be the way it is now. There’s nothing in Christianity itself that says that you have to believe that the book of Genesis was literally true. Even if you believe that God was responsible for the creation of man, it’s possible that the evolutionary model we have now or something like it is that way that he went about creating man.
Wikipedia explains evolutionary creationism/theistic evolution fairly well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
50million, it is possible to reconcile much of Christian theology with modern science. Some of it is pretty easy, some pretty stretched.
But there is nothing in the theory of evolution that prohibits a divine hand. It is also impossible to prove there isn’t a divine hand, either.
Maybe God created the universe then left it to its own devices. Maybe She interferes when necessary, maybe never. Maybe She made the rules of evolution and just set the cycle in motion, or controls every act of reproduction, mutation and selection everywhere and always.
The outcome could be exactly as if She didn’t exist.
Theologian apologists have made an entire industry of finding ways to excuse biblical text that seems to make little sense today. Read a book by the late Dr. Harry Rimmer, for example, one of which is entitled “Modern Science and the Genesis Record” (1945). He claims that not only is the Bible inerrant, but it actually proves that science is right!
He appears to have a successor, Gerald Schroeder, whose book tackles the same topic: Genesis and the Big Bang Theory : The Discovery Of Harmony Between Modern Science And The Bible".
Both authors have other books on similar topics.
Personally, I think these arguments are full of black holes, but they work for some.
I reconcile it this way:
God was the cause behind abiogenesis. Evolution picked up from there.
So “God” sent his son (in a human form) to save us humans, whom he did not create in the first place? If he did not create us, then why is he “saving” us? This gets us back to the original spot, “Creation is the most basic premise of Christianity.”
Please forgive me if I have misapplied who/whom.
Yes. You’re missing the fact that not all Christians believe the Bible is literally true, and that “believing the Bible is literally true” is not a pre-requisite for being a Christian. The Bible is a book of doctrinal guidance, not a science textbook. You cannot use the Bible to get answers about “science”–it’s only useful for getting answers about “religion”.
Although the Bible says that God created Man, it doesn’t say how He did it. Or how long it took.
…just that He used dust from the earth, and that it took, apparently, only a few moments on the sixth day.
But.
If you choose to interpret “dust of the earth” as meaning “the stuff that Planet Earth is made out of, like carbon and hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and sulfur and silicon and phosphorus and potassium and sodium and iron, which is what every living thing on Planet Earth is made out of”; and if you choose to interpret “made” as, “caused to evolve” rather than as, “magically [poof!] created out of nothing”; and if you choose to interpret “the sixth day” as meaning anywhere from 300 million to 6,000 years–because to God a thousand years are as a single day–then you can have Genesis 1 come out to mean that God used evolution to create Man.
I wasn’t taught there was any conflict between evolution and my religion. I was even taught it in a parochial school. I will admit that it didn’t go very deep, though, into the philosophical implications on religion; had to wait until college to take an entire course on evolution. It was fascinating. Still don’t see any conflict and I don’t think how my body was shaped has much to do with my immortal soul.
I’m presuming us Roman Catholics count as Christians for the purposes of this exercise, right?
But most Christians who accept evolution do believe that God created mankind. They just believe that evolution was the process he used to create man’s physical bodies (as distinct from the soul, which was specially created).
Fifty,
I don’t think you often see people saying I am a “Christian” here, or anywhere.
No one thinks they are a “Christian.” You think they are “Christians” because you want to reserve Christian for another use. Perhaps you should tell us about that, and then we can better judge the direction you want this thread to take.
I am a Christian. I don’t find that to be antithetical to understanding, and accepting the factual nature of the evidence that supports that description of the world. Understanding evolution is not in anyway related to knowing Christ, and giving my love to Him, and to every soul in the world. Look into your heart, and tell me, who put the quotes around Christ in this thread?
Knowing your point of view will help make this discussion about what you intend it to be.
Tris
I count four people right off the bat who have told you that the basic premise of Christianity is not “creation”.
So I’ll guess I’ll make five.
Creation is not the most basic premise of Christianity. If that were true, then Christianity would be no different from any other religion that claims that their god (by whatever name) created humans.
The basic premise of Christianity–the thing that distinguishes it from all other religions–is its claim that its god considered that the humans he had created to have fellowship with him had chosen this thing called “sin” (the wages of which unfortunately turned out to be “death”) that meant that they couldn’t fellowship with him after all, him being sinless and all, so in order to make a path back to himself, he incarnated himself as a human, came to earth to die sacrificially in the place of those sinful humans so that they might ask his forgiveness of their sin through the atoning blood that he himself shed, and have fellowship with him after all.
Plus have eternal life.
That’s Christianity.
If you believe that, that I posted, then you can be a member of our seekrit club.
You have to buy the t-shirt, though.
None of the Christians who have responded has said that God did not create humans. We corrected your understanding of what creation means, in a theological sense. If your definition differs, please say so clearly; if it does not, please do us the courtesy of using ours.
No, creation is *not * the most basic premise of Christianity. Lots of Christians have said this already. Please read the entirety of our responses.
I’ll be the first (I think) to say flat-out that you appear to have an agenda here which you’ve so far declined to share with us. State your premise, and defend it, but please stop playing disingenuous word games.
So, are you saying that God is not capable of “creating” man by starting with a self-replicating molecule? Interesting.
Are you also saying that when God created the fossil record, and the evidence of evolution that is in our dna and the dna of all of life, he was lying? Also interesting.
Christians, help me out here. Does this kind of heresy have a name?
I think I’ll just sit back and let DDG take over my self-appointed role here – she’s doing a much better job than I ever have! :o
But I think it’s important to realize that people mean a half dozen different things by “believe in,” and have the bad habit of switching them back and forth.
No scientist whatsoever “believes in” evolution. They have no theological certitude regarding it, they do not consider that it grants them salvation or blessings, they do not expect it to bestow them with eternal life.
They adhere to the intellectual conclusion that evolution is the mechanism by which life came to be as myriaplex as it is, by application of the scientific method to the evidence of the world about them.
No Christian believes in the Bible. The Bible did not die on the Cross to atone for sins; it has no power in and of itself to forgive sins or answer prayers.
They adhere to it as containing the Word of God, Who alone can do those things.
Do you believe in God? Do you believe in ghosts? Do you believe in gravitation? Do you believe in the Constitution? Do you believe in your best friend? Do you believe in the theory of evolution? Do you believe in your spouse? Do you believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Do you believe in the dignity of each human being? They all have slightly or substantially different shifts in what “believe in” means.
I was specifically refering to people to say, “I am a Christian and I believe in Evolution”, so yes I do see people here saying, “I am a Christian”.
Duck Duck Goose,
You make many logical arguments and I applaud you for consistantly replying to the OP without random divergences like “triskadecamus”.
Maybe I should pose a follow-up question; “Could there be Christianity without Creation?”