For Trump, it can be both, and still somehow not raise prices.
Schrödinger’s Tariff.
They are being bombarded by GOP propaganda. The economy today is great, better than during trump. That is a fact.
The GOP is also pushing the idea that crime is out of control- but violent crime is at a low. Does that mean that people who watch Fox news dont really think that crime is bad? Sure they do- but they are WRONG.
It is not a bubble, it is economic fact. Yes, the trump voters are watching Fox news and listening to Conservative talk Radio, which feeds them lies and propaganda. Just because they believe the lies, does not make the lies true.
By lying, making impossible promises, and blaming others for his failures . trump is a right wing populist, and that is what they do, it is what they have alway done, Hitler, Boris Johnson, Putin, Netanyahu - and sometimes Right Wing Populists turn into fascists.
So, yes over all Americans are better off now that they were 4 years ago. period. Anything else is a lie.
This made me smile. I’m stealing it.
(I’m guessing that it was your autocorrect typing and not you.But thanks anyway.)
[Sorry, mods. I know it’s off topic. But this is the Dope, and we all luv a good turn of phrase, don’t we?]
@Loach didn’t say anything like that. The bubble he is taking about is the one that asserts everyone who is supporting Trump is evil. Just because they’ve been lied to does not make them evil. Just because they believe myths about the economy that they have been fed since before Reagan does not make them evil.
That is a true statement. However, individual Americans may not match the average case. Trying to show them that these people over here and those people over there are all doing at least as well as under Trump doesn’t budge them when they are thinking about this person right here.
As Trump says, if you repeat something enough people will start to believe it. Even if wages have grown faster than prices recently most people focus on prices. Then Trump tells them over and over that he had the best economy ever and they think that there must be truth to it or he wouldn’t say it.
Meanwhile, another assassination attempt will only help Trump. I am cynical enough to believe that this one was staged to boost his support.
Given how obviously vile and incompetent Trump is? In practice they are. No decent human being would support Trump if they are even vaguely aware of reality. Either they actually are “evil Magats”, or they are so cut off in their own bubble that they might as well be. The difference doesn’t matter to their victims, or their votes. We can’t read minds so what matters is their actions.
And more directly relevant to the thread, people like that are going to support Trump if they vote at all and there’s no point trying to convince them otherwise, because they probably won’t hear it in their bubble and won’t listen if they do. If everything Trump has done hasn’t gotten through by now nothing will.
Nobody is lying to these people, they are shown how to spin facts and events to fit their existing world view. They are being told what they want to hear. Stop imagining them to be feebleminded and/or easily controlled/influenced.
(“Evil” might be too strong a word, I’m open to suggestions here. I concede there is a lot of light between a baker supporting the Nazis and the people actually unloading the trains. I do think that is a matter of degree, not of principle.)
I think we shouldn’t underestimate the bubble.
For example, a large number of Americans, maybe even the majority, believe that the US economy is struggling right now. And a large number (I don’t know if it’s the majority) believes crime is up and oil production is substantially down. You don’t need to be MAGA to hold these misconceptions.
It’s because one side of the news media lies about these things, and the other is largely passive.
And not to forget that bad news sells better than good news.
Looking at the US from outside and only casually browsing sites like CNN and ABC, I have never picked up the idea that the economy is on a good track or that crime has reduced. And I recognise that I’m probably looking at more left-leaning sources.
You have to have a basic level of curiosity and interest in things like the economy to get anywhere close to ‘reality’ - and unfortunately there are plenty of people who don’t have that.
A huge number of people worldwide believe in a variety of mystical sky pixies, some even letting that belief dictate their attire, gender rights, and daily schedules. Are all of those people irrational in all respects?
Similarly, I’m willing to accept the possibility that not every Trump supporter is absolutely indecent in all respects.
I don’t normally post here, but I have to say that he is seemingly committing political suicide with lies that are so absurd that any thinking swing voter would have to abandon him at this point in time.
I had to sit up and take notice a couple of nights ago when, in the course of their daily campaign updates, ABC7 news referred to Trump’s aired statement as, “his lies”. They then followed with an update of Haitian persecution that has resulted from his lies.
I think there is a misconception about potential Trump voters. Not everyone is watching Fox News daily. Or even watching the news daily. Those that are can’t be won over anyway. Not everyone looks at the world like a typical P&E poster does. Many don’t like politics and shy away from it. They may vote but they are not going to study the candidates or watch a debate. They will vote for how they perceive the world around them. Those voters can be influenced but it’s difficult. They are the ones that are most effected by the question “Are you better off today?”
Well indeed I need to expand the word “news” to include social media and influential commentators like Charlie Kirk, Tim pool etc.
I wasn’t just talking FOX.
This is the point where some will argue that, no, most people get their understanding of the economy only from what they see, not what they’re told, but when it comes to the big picture, it seems to be more of the latter IME. I mean I often hear false talking points from people that claim not to watch the news.
And that perception is shaped by myths about the political parties that go outside political circles into the general pop culture.
Those lies myths include the concept that liberals want to tax everybody heavily and then give that money through social programs to undeserving lazy cheats. This even from people who survive off those same programs.
Or the myth that republicans are fiscally responsible.
Or the myth that regulations are unnecessary to protect workers from corporate greed, or the environment from corporate greed. Thus republicans are better because they reduce unnecessary regulations so business can thrive.
Those central myths about the nature of the political parties are decades old and are accessible to people who don’t follow politics. But they affect his the basic parties are perceived.
Couple that with people who aren’t thinking about the economy necessarily, but social issues. They don’t have an in depth understanding of the border situation and illegal immigrants. They just hear “illegal” and think “bad”, without digging in to all the details of what drives these crossings, or where the people are actually coming from. They don’t know about DACA and dreamers. It’s not on their radar.
They’re not feeble-minded, they’re just not curious and are focused on their own lives and families and problems.
Being told what they want to hear instead of the truth is lying to them.
It isn’t feebleminded to believe a worldview you’ve been raised to believe in and told is true from your earliest days. It takes an act of will to challenge your beliefs and seek out facts that conflict with your preconceived beliefs. It’s hard to not interpret things to fit your worldview. Especially when there is a dedicated core of people manufacturing the spin and insisting it is true.
So he’s going to get a majority of voters then.
I would use a subtly different phrasing:
If those voters’ minds can be changed, it will be difficult.
Those voters, IMHO, are being influenced. The only question is … by what sources.
Hit the proverbial nail on the head with these three paragraphs. And these false ideas have never changed in my lifetime and never will. Which is why a sizeable minority in this country will always vote for the GOP presidential candidate.
You think that. I would like to think that as well - as well as convincing any non-batshit crazy Trumpers. But I sure wouldn’t bet the house on it.
Periodically, my wife will say something like, “THIS will really hurt him with his supporters.” To which I respond, “Why THIS, when the countless other things just as bad bothered them not one whit?”
His supporters aren’t a solid group. Neither are Harris’ supporters. They are all individual voters who are free to do what they want. That’s what gets lost when looking at just numbers and not people. And those numbers work in most cases. But when an election might hinge on a few thousand votes in one state the individuals become much more important. You don’t know what that one thing will be to convince a voter. Not the guy with the Trump statue on his lawn but maybe his wife or son might hit a different button when that curtain closes.