I have read the Pew research, and to be completely upfront about it, I don’t believe the numbers. I don’t believe the numbers because if they are remotely accurate, why don’t more majority Muslim countries punish apostasy with death? Why aren’t those laws more regularly enforced in countries that do, if they’re so popular? That study is frequently cited, but to my knowledge those numbers have not been corroborated by other studies. (Do you know of any?) it’s one of those “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” things.
First, we do have to acknowledge that the Pew Research and other polls pretty consistently find majority or large minority Muslim opinions in the world agreeing with what we in the west often call “extremist” views. I think I recall the 80% figure for Egyptians about apostasy, for example, and remember similar results for the stoning of adulterous women and for approving of the September 11 attacks.
Perhaps, Valteron, a counterargument might favor a democratic approach to what the law says, for countries with a big mix of religions in the population. The idea here would be that religion and government are separate (which is an obvious concept in the west but is so unfamiliar in some Muslim countries that the idea can be very difficult to express; for example I think in Arabic this translates into a separation between authority and authority). Considering that in Canada Muslims are a minority, he ought to see some practical advantages to this. Even if he thinks Islam is correct, that doesn’t necessarily mean the government should run religion.
I think he’s done a very good job of putting himself in a situation that can’t really be argued with. Difficult to outframe it, as he already states that he knows other viewpoints, but rejects them. If you enter into his worldview in order to argue, you would have to challenge the basic assumption, which is that there is a superior moral code. For that you would need to challenge the Quran or its author which can’t be done, as Mohammed was a prophet, i.e. sent by God, so even that would be circular reasoning.
I suggest not discussing it further as there is nothing to discuss.
No, not really. There are a lot of people on this planet who believe things that I find atrocious. I don’t have enough time or mental energy to be upset with all of them. My upsetedness must be portioned out based on several factors: how evil the belief is, now many people believe it, and how directly relevant it is to my life.
A large number of Muslims believe that speaking or writing against their religion should be illegal. Most of those live far away from me. A few choose to shed blood in western cities because of their beliefs, but only a few. Millions of Chinese and North Korean communists oppose basic personal and economic freedoms. They also live a long way away. The closest they’ve come to me is a cyberattack that disrupted the release of a movie I never planned to see. Here in the USA, the government imprisons thousands of people for drug use and other minor crimes, and occasionally kills a few of them. Secular liberals seek to take away my freedoms in areas such as whether my health insurance covers birth control. President Obama kills numerous innocent people in Pakistan and Yemen with drone strikes. The CIA torturers people, lies about it, and no one is punished.
All bad things, of course. All worthy of some concern. I see no reason why anonymous internet users defending Islamic blasphemy laws should be the highest priority.
To my knowledge inconvenient claims don’t require extraordinary evidence. Now of course I will be told that the plural of “anecdote” is not data, but quite simply, the killing or torture of people who want to leave Islam in Muslim countries is perhaps poorly covered by the media but by no means unusual. You can get lots of examples from the various councils of ex-Muslims in the west. You have Raif Badawi, but many others who are less well-known such as Palestinian Waleed Al-Husseini, who was imprisoned and tortured by the allegedly secular and tolerant Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas. There is a YouTube circulating right now showing a mentally ill woman in Kabul, Afghanistan, being beaten to death by a mob of youths for having burned some pages from the Koran. And of course, many atheists keep quiet until they can flee Muslim countries and make it to the west. Finally, cases of Muslims being “honour killed” in western countries that have large Muslim populations is not unknown.
I am leaning to the advice that I should not bother talking to a wall, and end the discussion.
But what I might ask him is: Do you believe the government of Canada should put to death persons who deny that Jesus was the Son of God, such as Muslims do?
“There is no God, and Mohammed is not his prophet.”
Seriously, though, the guy’s mind is closed. You have next to no hope of changing a mind through an E-mail exchange; especially so if your side of that exchange seems mainly to consist of insults delivered in a tone of hysteria. I mean, you’ve been posting here for years about how we should all be terrified of muslims, and as far as I can tell no one has ever been convinced regarding your particular obsession.
Also, one question mark is sufficient to convey the notion of a question. Keep using them five at time like that, and pretty soon you’ll run out. Just sayin’.
I don’t quite understand what you mean. Do Muslims count the denial of Jesus as the Son of God as apostasy ?
Oh, come on! That would by like saying that you will someday run out of snarky and insulting comments. I am sure the supply is inexhaustible just like my supply of punctuation.
Sorry, that was bad grammar on my part. I meant “Do you think that the Government of Canada should put to death those who, like Muslims, deny that Jesus was the Son of God?”
I thought the setup for this was accurate but that this was a general question, not a specific one - I didn’t realise you were actually crowd-sourcing debate tips for yourself with this guy. With that in mind I’m going to have to bow out.
This is completely false. It is not at all difficult to express the idea in arabic, the words for government have no thing at all to do with the word religion, and and it is not in any way unfamiliar as a concept. The actaul real muslim world outside of the stereotypes based on the idea we live under a saudi system is in predominately with a seperation of the religion and the state that is not different in system from most european nations. The law and politicals systems outside of a handful of countries are the secular law outside of personal law on marriages and similar.
There is a gross problem with comment on the religion and the muslims based on superficial stereotypes and a gross misinformation.
Don’t blame you. I feel like telling this guy to fuck off and streaming a couple of Chapters of House of Cards on Netflix. His fanatical ignorance is an impenetrable armour that makes him immune to logic.
Which, assuming that being exists, means eternal damnation and suffering for your soul.
Is it worth it for the smug satisfaction of saying “Hey, God, you ain’t better than me?”
Islamo-fascism is not a civilization; it is a small minority of the much larger Muslim world.
There are people out there who hate me. I am not going to let them live in my head rent-free.
And besides - talk is cheap, and talk on the Internet is even cheaper. This is a rather extreme example of “someone is wrong on the Internet”.
Don’t wrestle with a pig - you only get dirty, and the pig enjoys it. Unless you like wrestling, in which case go ahead in the full knowledge that you aren’t going to put a dent in his thinking.
You’re right, and he’s wrong. Now go outside and play.
Regards,
Shodan
Agreed. People think that Saudi Arabia and Iran are typical, but they’re the exception.
Beyond that, lots of countries in “the West” including Valteron’s beloved Canada don’t have separation of Church and State.
I’ll never understand someone who flies off the handle at finding a Bible in a hotel room, quakes in fear at some bitter loser ranting on YouTube, but has no problem with his tax dollars supporting Catholic schools.
Sure, Muslims understand perfectly well what is meant by separation of religion and government, and how it works. But to enact such a separation would be to accept the idea that Islam is just one religious opinion among many, and that even in a Muslim-majority country the government must regard all forms of religious belief, even atheism, as having equal rights. Good luck getting that accepted in countries that have the death penalty for apostasy (or sometimes just prison terms) that have the death penalty or prison for homosexuals, sharia law governing family law, etc. etc. The closest thing to a modern democratic western state Islam ever produced was Turkey in the 20th century, but now, after being rejected for EU membership, that country is slipping rapidly to that “ol’ time religion” under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.
The problem is that Islam is fundamentally antithetical to concepts such as human rights, democracy and the sovereignty of the individual. The concept of “I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” goes completely over the head of most Muslims. That statement is one of the noblest expressions of western humanitarian thought, but when I quote it to Muslims on the Internet, they tell me: “If what the person says is wrong in your opinion, why would you defend the dissemination of lies?”
That’s your first mistake.
The second one was insulting him and telling him if he doesn’t like Canada then he can git out. Telling people to leave your country when ones of its supposed strengths is inclusiveness is counter productive.
If you’re not interested in serious debate and just want to troll him (which is the point of Youtube comments), ask him why secular Western countries are such nice places to live and so many Muslim ones are hellholes. Why doesn’t Allah help them kill the infidels or destroy Israel? Why do Western armies roflstomp them so hard and exploit their resources? Did we make a deal with the devil? Why can’t millions of faithful and correct Muslims overcome it? That should get some lulz.
As for the whole “clash of civilizations” thing, sheesh, talk about marketing hype. What clash? Like a wet noodle into a wall maybe. If there is one, it’s apparently between Sunni and Shias. They’re the ones actually doing the fighting.
Yes, most young British Muslims join neither.
Val - You’ve started several threads in which you state quite stridently that moderate, peaceful Muslims are marginalized by a sinister and powerful network of Muslims who are dedicated to destroying us innocent Westerners, and if I remember right, you may think they stand a decent chance of succeeding if we don’t take more assertive action against this existential threat to modern society.
How do you suppose a moderate Muslim is to reason with someone who more or less thinks they are Quislings in the vast Islamic threat to Western civilization?