How can the church let this happen ?!!

I don’t think the freedom of religion argument has been used to defend pedophilia per se. Rather, it has been used to defend “supervisors” of priests and churches (in the corporate entity sense) against charges of negligent supervision, etc. where the higher ups were not aware of what was going on.

The argument, I believe, is that a civil (secular) court cannot pass judgment on the policies, procedures, etc. that form the basis of Catholic doctrine or the adequacy of those procedures. In other words, if a priest’s supervisor determines that the priest’s moral failings should be dealt with through prayer, meditation, and counseling because church doctrine teaches that this is appropriate, then a civil court cannot judge the adequacy of those procedures. There are a couple of cases where that argument has been made in sexual abuse cases, and I believe (but am not sure) that courts have rejected this argument where the higher ups were in fact aware of what the priest was doing. The cases that have established that civil courts cannot judge the adequacy of church doctrine, procedures, etc. are:

Gonzalez v. Roman Catholic Archbishop, 280 U.S. 1, 16, 50 S. Ct. 5, 74 L.Ed. 131 (1929)

Presbyterian Church v. Mary Elizabeth Blue Hull Memorial Presbyterian Church, 393 U.S. 440, 446-47, 89 S.Ct. 601, 21 L.Ed. 2d 658 (1969) and

Serbian Eastern Orthodox Diocese v. Milivojevich, 426 U.S. 696, 708-15, 96 S.Ct. 2373, 49 L.Ed. 2d 151 (1976)

The following cases involved sexual abuse by church officials–I have no idea of what the issues or outcomes were:

Schmidt v. Bishop, 779 F. Supp. 321, 328 (S.D.N.Y. 1991) (child sexual abuse claim against religious institution)

Roppolo v. Moore, 644 So. 2d 206, 208 (La. App. 1994), cert. denied, 650 So. 2d 253 (La. 1995) (adult sexual exploitation claim against religious institution)

See also L.L.N. v. Clauder, 209 Wis.2d 674, 689-90 (1997).

me


Puffington

I realize this is the way you speak to your parents but try to be a littel adult when you post on this board.

If my remarks “deserved” no answer why then did you answer. Who’s the dimwit?


You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

I find this very difficult to believe, and in the absence of any details, like the city or the year (presumably the diocese was a party in interest) it’s impossible to check.

The statement that the Church’s “creed” provides that it is “superior to and supersedes” secular law is very misleading. The Church does aver that secular authorities have no spiritual competence, and that canon law as it applies to the spiritual government of the Christian organization and its members is the only source of authority. (Source: Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume IX, Entry “Canon Law”.)

But in matters pertaining to civil or criminal liability, canon law recognizes the authority of secular law. (Ibid, see also Canon 3, “The canons of the Code do not abrogate, nor do they derogate from … nations or other civil entities.”)

So what “part of the RCC creed” were you talking about in your post, Tominator2? And in light of these very specifc, cited rules above, I am highly doubtful that any case anywhere turned on the points you describe. Moreover, how was the Church planning to stop the punishment to be admininstered by civil authorities? Were they hiding the priest in a basement somewhere, and refusing to surrender him to a possible jail sentence?

While I try to be the soul of calm in these situations, it occurs to me that I would save a lot of typing and research if people would post only after some research of their own. Your claim is not remotely defensible.

  • Rick

I just have to comment that the notion that child molesters in the priesthood is the same as in the general population misses the boat. These guys are priests. They are the face of a church that claims to represent, or at least interpret, God’s will and distribute divine love. They are charged with the spiritual growth and development of these children. They take a vow of celibacy, on their honor and before that God. If the pedophiles among them are no more numerous than the number of pedophiles among garbagemen, so the hell what? The fault weighs far more grievously in them, and doubly so when the church hierarchy itself condones the action. And they did condone it, tacitly, through knowing inaction. The Catholic Church is a great one for loyalty to the hierarchy; it is then the height of hypocrisy for them - or their defenders - to attempt to wash their hands of the commensurate responsibility for the actions of their representatives. Especially in a case like this where enough people knew about it that one of them SHOULD have stopped this man’s abuse. “It’s out of my control; I wash my hands of it”. Hmmm. Sounds familiar somehow. Didn’t somebody famous say something like that once?

The church HAS finally responded to this problem with, apparently, the equivalent of a memo, but its personnel have for years had a habit of turning a blind eye to the problem. That is cause for repentence, confession, and penitence, and I don’t think the church has shown itself spiritually mature enough to seek them out.

Finally, there have been three bald assertions in this thread:

  1. Homosexual pedophiles are more common, at least on a per capita basis, than heterosexual pedophiles.
  2. The proportion of homosexual and heterosexual pedophiles is about even.
  3. 90% of pedophiles are heterosexual.

Does anyone have an actual source they can cite for their position? It would make a better impression than just flinging charges of ignorance around, and restating the position you like best.

Thanks Bricker. Pretty much what I was asking.

And very, um, bold of you!

These guys are human just like everybody else. They have human failings and strengths, just like everybody else. They administer the sacraments, they preside at the Eucharist, but they are human, they are not godlings. They are not the “face” of the Church. The Church is the people who comprise it, of whom the clergy is only a small part.

The people who are the Church seek to know and love God, and to do His will. They do not claim to “distribute” His love, nor do they claim to be anything more than sinners needing grace. Is the Church as an institution corrupt? Probably no more so, and no less so, than any other human institution. As with any human organization there are those within it who abuse it, exploit it, or twist it to their own ends.

It has, however, outlasted every other human institution throughout the last two thousand years. That is, IMHO, because its heart, its core – people who love God and seek to know and worship Him – have stayed the course and weathered the storms through all the abuses, scandels, and miscreants who have abused the power entrusted to them for their own purposes. It’s really a very common story, when you think about it; there is no human institution which has avoided that.

-Melin


Siamese attack puppet – California

Right. This is a huge stretch from the claim that “freedom of religion” was used to defend pedophilia.

Thanks for the cites and research, by the way!

  • Rick

sigh

Where’s the dang ‘preview’ feature?? :slight_smile:

  • Rick

Surgoshan wrote:

Actually, there was a front-page article in the Atlanta paper within the last week or so which indicated that the percentage of priests with a “homosexual orientation” was higher than in the population at large. I don’t recall the exact numbers (I’ll try to find a link), but this was based on a study by the Catholic Church. The main point of the article was not the incidence of homosexual orientation among the priesthood, but the incidence of AIDS among the priesthood. IIRC, it was either three or four times higher than in the general population.

I have no axe to grind here, and I am not attacking the Catholic Church. I am not anti-gay, and I am not anti-Catholic. I am only correcting what I believe may have been an inaccurate assumption in an earlier post.

Documentation, as requested:

October 29, 1947: The President’s Committee on Civil Rights presented President Truman with a comprehensive survey on civil rights conditions in the United States, and made several sweeping recommendations to correct the situation. In addition to such remedies as permanent civil rights and fair employment practices commissions and legislation to eliminate discrimination in the nation’s legal and electoral systems, the committee called for laws and policies to end discrimination and segregation in the armed forces. The committee even went so far as to urge the President to use the military “as an instrument of social change.”*

July 26, 1948: President Truman signs Executive Order 9981, which states, “It is hereby declared to be the policy of the President that there shall be equality of treatment and opportunity for all persons in the armed services without regard to race, color, religion, or national origin.”#

July 27, 1948: Army Chief of Staff General Omar N. Bradley states that desegregation will come to the Army only when it becomes a fact in the rest of American society.#

July 29, 1948: President Truman states in a press conference that the intent of Executive Order 9981 is to end segregation in the armed forces.#

March 28, 1949: Secretary of the Army Kenneth Royall argues in favor of maintaining segregation, saying that the Army “was not an instrument for social evolution.”#

March 1949 The Fahy Committee initiated its efforts “not to impose integration on the services, but to convince them of the merits of the President’s order and to agree with them on a plan to make it effective.” The committee’s first goal was to overcome the Army’s determination to retain segregation because of senior leaders’ twin beliefs that blacks were unreliable and ineffective in combat and that white soldiers would not serve with African Americans. The committee’s investigations established that “an indivisible link existed between military efficiency and equal opportunity.” It used the “efficiency argument” to undermine the Army’s rationale for determining military occupational specialties (MOSs), limiting the number of black specialists, and maintaining its racial quota.*

(*www.redstone.army.mil; #www.trumanlibrary.org)

All the arguments pro and con are the same for sexual orientation as they were for racial and women’s integration, so they are most assuredly related.

Esprix


Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.

Bricker says:

I might mention Lateran IV http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html . Canon 44 reads in part:

A clear stab at the right of a secular state to enforce property laws/rights. This would appear to be a clear abrogation. While I’m at it, Canon 3 states (about heretics):

And from the Counsel of Basel http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum17.htm

(and so on…) A clear indication that the RCC feels it has the power to command secular authorities.

And while we’re at Basel, Session 19 contains:

As for disciplining a priest, Canon 7 states:

The Council of Constance http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum16.htm says:

The Council of Trent http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum18.htm states:

[quote]
If anyone, lay or cleric, has been found guilty of a charge on account of which the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience, let him be punished by the penalties respectively imposed by the sacred canons or by civil law.[\quote]
and later:

The above passages imply that clerics are to be governed by ecclesiastical/canon law, and lay persons by civil law.

And to hit below the belt, from Unam Sanctum http://listserv.american.edu/catholic/church/papal/boniface/unamsant.html :

I could go on, but I think by now I’ve answered which part of the RCC creed I was referring to.

How did they plan to stop the punishment? Well, they might have tried to mount a defense along the lines I outlined above (an interesting line in itself), or they could have pulled a diplomatic lever or two (say, settle for deportation to the Vatican), or they could have even invoked sanctuary (pretty far-fetched, I know). The point is, the RCC would have considered a secular court passign judgement on a priest against canon law.

I found it hard to find percentages of same-sex child molestations vs. opposite-sex molestations, but I did find the following:

From the U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics, March 1996:

So 97% of all child molesters are male, and 75% of them molest girls. Read on…

From ncvc.org:

So out of the 3% of female child molesters, 6.2% of them molest girls. We’re still talking predominantly heterosexual molestation here.

Might say something about why male pedophiles become priests?

From www.canuck.com:

Finally, from http://hcqsa.virtualave.net

[/QUOTE]
Are homosexuals more likely to molest children?

One of the most enduring and damaging myths equates homosexuality with child molestation. In truth, the most likely person to sexually abuse a child is a heterosexual male; in many cases this person is a family member or close family friend (Falk, 1989), (Koss, 1994). Pedophiles who molest children of the same sex are almost never homosexual in their adult sexual relations (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978). Furthermore, the molestation of children by heterosexual women appears to be uncommon, and even less common among lesbians (Erickson, Walbek & Seely, 1988) (Finkelhor, 1984) (Johnson & Shrier, 1987).
[/QUOTE]

The best cites I could find on short notice. I hope they help from a stats point of view.

Esprix


Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.

Tominator,

No.

No, no, no.

Your original claim:

How DARE you quote canons from an eucumenical council in 1215 and try to pass it off as the church’s current creed? This is Catholic-bashing, pure and simple. An intellectually honest person would have noted that he was quoting a document EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS OLD, which no longer purports to describe canon law, and would have explained the difference between the ‘canons’ of a council and canon law. You did neither.

“Canon law” refers to the body of laws and regulations made by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Catholic Church and its members. It has three main historical periods: from the beginning to the “Decretum” of Gratian exclusively, from Gratian to the Council of Trent, and from the Council of Trent to the present. The law of these three periods is referred to respectively as the ancient, the new, and the recent law (jus antiquum, jus novum, jus novissimum). You may also see references to these same periods as “ancient law,” “the law of the Middle Ages,” and the “modern law.”

You then quote canons from the Council of Basle - if possible, a worse misrepresentation, since the Council of Basle failed in whole to secure the approbation of the Church and the Pope, and thus does not rank in authority with ecumenical councils! But not to worry – at least it was up to date, having occured only five hundred fifty years ago!

The Council of Constance, another modern reference, five hundred eighty years ago, and another council not fully ecumenical.

Your reference to the Council of Trent (four hundred forty years ago) is misleading as well. And your quote of Unan Sanctum (some seven hundred years ago) is indeed hitting below the belt; this is perhaps the most quoted and misquoted text by anti-Catholic to prove that the Church is power-hungry.

In summary, none of what you have quoted is of any but historical interest in deteriming current canon law. If your original quote had said, “In the past, the RCC claimed that yada yada yada,” you would have heard not one peep from me. I admit that through much of her history, the RCC has claimed authority over civil process.

BUT IT DOESN’T NOW. You asserted a current claim and policy by the Roman Catholic Church for the superiority of church canon law over United States civil and criminal law.

And when I called you on it, you hauled out documents from before Columbus even set foot in the New World.

Well, Tominator, I have news for you. When the subject under discussion is the price of gasoline in Galveston, your opinions on the temperature of piss in Poughkeepsie mean nothing.

  • Rick

LATE-BREAKING BULLETIN:

The government of the United States has laws that overtly permit discrimination between blacks and whites. Proof?

Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896)

The Supreme Court has spoken.

  • Rick

APOLOGY TO BRICKER, ET AL. . . .

Let this post stand as my apology to bricker and anyone else on this thread who was offended by my allegation that the Roman Catholic Church has used the “freedom of religion” clause of the U.S. Constitution to defend or otherwise ‘cover up’ an occurrence of child molestation by priests or any other personnel of the Church. I should not have said it.

As my Act of Contrition, I hereby retire from the board for a while, and will not again post as “George Papoon”.


"You’ll never get as much out of being right as you will from finding out why you were wrong . . . " The Papoon Principles Ch. 1.

And it’s not true.

kunilou wrote:

Not to mention the fact that such claims might make you really jealous if you had a crush on one of your teachers but never got to act on it.

Apology accepted. No problems here.

  • Rick

So what name do you think he’ll use on return? He’s already gotten himself banned once using NewtonsApple and another time under another name.*
*This is assuming that GP is NA.

Bricker states:

How DARE I? I wasn’t aware that being old had any relation to the truth. The Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.) states the following:

Is it now permissible to conspire, because Chalcedon happened so long ago? I appreciate your organization of canonical law - I didn’t know that. Do you have a reference which shows how canon law from a previous period is invalidated in a new period, without express repeal? If not, my quotes must stand.

Bricker statea:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Canon Law:

Bricker mentions the Council of Basel:

The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

Which I think was after the 25th session, which leaves my 19th session quotes on pretty firm ground.

Bricker also mentions the Council of Constance:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

As the above quote is from the 39th session, it would seem to be okay.

Also mentioned is the Council of Trent:

Please explain.

About Unam Sanctum:

It was late, I was tired, and Boniface VII is a lot more clear than his apologists.

And then:

Given the historical basis of canon law in ecumenical canons (among other sources), please explain the developments in canon law that have altered/invalidated the above canons. It’s not that it’s impossible, but I’d like to see the cites.

And then:

Well, it’s not like they’ve had a lot of these. My source http://pc3.piarista-bp.sulinet.hu/councils/~index.htm shows a total of 21, 20 of which are finished (Vatican 1 being listed as unfinished, although it apparently adjourned on 10/20/1870). Of these 21, exactly four met after Columbus sailed, and there have been only two since 1864.

If you want newer, the quotes are less exact, but Vatican 1 says (in Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff):

And Vatican 2 is even vaguer:

So there’s a defense of my older cites, some newer ones, and a defense of why I think ecumenical canons bear on canon law.