How can we know if a racist changed and how long is the statute of limitations for a racist past?

[wonky]

@Pantastic

Ugh, editing fail on the last post.

I also think there’s a pretty big gap between hanging out with ‘someone who’s kind of racist but mostly doesn’t talk about it’ and ‘someone who was in a band that has songs that literally praise Nazi party members and call for racial cleansing and that did fund-raisers for neo-nazi groups’; that is a little bit past ‘I don’t make a scene with that one racist jerk from work’.

There’s a huge difference, but the bigger difference for me is whether the person acknowledges their racism and are working to change it.

And no, I’m not going to be inviting known, unrepentant racists for Thanksgiving. While they likely wouldn’t accept the invitation, what with the miscegenatin’ and all, I also would never turn to my husband and say “By the way, Uncle Bob is coming for dinner, but he promised to leave his hood at home and says we won’t have a repeat of the burning cross incident.”

[BigT]

I totally agree that we should be accommodating for people who used to be even the most outspoken racists but have reformed.

The one problem is that people have every reason to claim to no longer be racist while still being so. So we tend to expect a little more from those who were overtly racist in the past than we would from someone with no history of racism. The more overt racism, the more we expect before we accept it.

I would have no problem with his apology by itself, but that one photo does give me pause. The description in the article is that they are “members of New York’s skinhead scene,” not former members. And there is the issue that there’s a sort of ostracization by skinheads for those who leave the scene. And he’s not just talking to them, but lined up for a picture with them.

The one reason I would give this guy the benefit of the doubt is because of who apparently seems to sending the pics–members of the scene. So whether he did it decades ago or more recently, it does sound like he left the scene.

So I’m willing to accept he is no longer a skinhead. Though I’d be likely to keep my eye on him for a while.

[tomndebb]

@Emiliana

I simply don’t cultivate close friendships among people who are blithely and unapologetically racist, sexist, or homophobic. This doesn’t strike me as a personal flaw in need of correction.

Nor would I ever say that it was.

[Commodore]

@tomndebb

You are wrong.

Every society has had certain taboo expressions, often attempting to marginalize smaller groups within those societies. Most of what the political Right moans against as Political Correctness is just the effort of society to correct previous taboos. There are examples of actual PC nonsense, but they are far less prevalent than the hate speech against which it is directed.

Nazi Germany used Political Correctness to subdue the people just as the Communist do, it’s an art form of conning people to get there way to control everyone.
The proof is in the pudding as all PC thugs work to attack others that don’t believe what they want or push.

I have seen the same with some so called Christian groups pushing some line they claim. I put my view forward and they go mental and will not listen at all.
The thing is some cunning clown as in doctrine them about some points and they have swallowed it hook line and sinker, they never worked it out themselves because they are to laze or stupid to or don’t have the time to look into it all.

People will hate what ever, the last thing we should do is drive it underground, because to do such only just feeds it.
I only see the far left causing problems in the streets by trying to shut the others up they hate.
I don’t like the extreme left or extreme right at all as I am in the centre so that does not make me popular because I say they both are struck with a madness, something likened to goats controlled by wolfs.

[mhendo]

@Commodore

Nazi Germany used Political Correctness to subdue the people just as the Communist do, it’s an art form of conning people to get there way to control everyone.

I am sometimes amazed at how much wrongness can be jammed into a single, comma-spliced sentence.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Commodore

Nazi Germany used Political Correctness to subdue the people just as the Communist do, it’s an art form of conning people to get there way to control everyone.
The proof is in the pudding as all PC thugs work to attack others that don’t believe what they want or push.

I have seen the same with some so called Christian groups pushing some line they claim. I put my view forward and they go mental and will not listen at all.
The thing is some cunning clown as in doctrine them about some points and they have swallowed it hook line and sinker, they never worked it out themselves because they are to laze or stupid to or don’t have the time to look into it all.

People will hate what ever, the last thing we should do is drive it underground, because to do such only just feeds it.
I only see the far left causing problems in the streets by trying to shut the others up they hate.
I don’t like the extreme left or extreme right at all as I am in the centre so that does not make me popular because I say they both are struck with a madness, something likened to goats controlled by wolfs.

Commodore, due respect, but this post makes no more sense than anything else you’ve posted on the subject. Where your meaning isn’t obscured entirely by strings of misspelled words, it seems to consist of cliches bound together by a combination of unsubstantiated claims and pats to your own back.

If you’d like to participate, please consider upping your game. Bring specific arguments that are neither self-congratulatory nor cliche-ridden; spell them correctly; support them with evidence.

[tomndebb]

@Commodore

Nazi Germany used Political Correctness to subdue the people just as the Communist do, it’s an art form of conning people to get there way to control everyone.

It would be interesting to see an actual example, from history, supporting this claim.

@Commodore

I only see the far left causing problems in the streets by trying to shut the others up they hate.

So, you have not read, heard, or watched any news in the last eight months? You have missed the examples of Trump talking about hitting people he opposes? The Trump supporters beating up people who spoke out at Trump rallies? The Trump crowds turning on people who were not even protesting Trump, but simply wearing T-shirts or jackets supporting other candidates and calling on security to have them ejected from his rallies? (All of these events occurred before the first anti-Trump rally got rowdy.)
You have drawn an interesting conclusion given the fact that it is utterly disproved by the evidence.

[John_Stamos_Left_Ear]

So I read the arguments and thought about it and here’s where I have the problem with the guy in the OP:

No atonement.

Some people in this thread talked of being racist or homophobic and growing out of that, and that’s great!

But this guy did more than that. He was a relatively prolific figure in a scene, a part of a band that used their music to spread the word of their white nationalistic beliefs. They literally had a stage for their views and you can still buy their records if you want, so even though he doesn’t feel that way, his words and views live on.

So this guy was not just Archie Bunker sitting on his chair complaining. He was active in a community of people who shared those beliefs and a part of a band that extolled them to that group and also as a recruiting tool. There are many quotes from old school racists who don’t like the racist punk, hardcore and metal bands that the younger racists gravitate to, but they see the value in them as a recruiting tool.

So this guy did more than just harbor racist thoughts, he preached those views and encouraged others to join him.

For someone who harbored views without that aspect, I think just suddenly changing one’s mind is enough - and you don’t get much pushback because you didn’t share those views much, if at all. You certainly didn’t go onstage with a band of like-minded people and preach them.

So when you are involved as an actual preacher of hate, it’s not enough to just stop. I want to see that person work with anti-racist groups of which there is no shortage; I want that person to not just shut up but keep speaking, only as passionately as he did when he was on the other side.

Robert Byrd didn’t just quit the KKK. He did it with a speech, and he showed for the rest of his lives through his votes as well as his voice, that he was done with the KKK.

Now as for what Eater.com does, that’s up to them. Being a former racist is not a protected class. But if I were them, I would ask him to spend some time volunteering for an anti-racist group. That would go a lot farther in making me believe that he changed his views rather than just shut up about them.

[Loach]

@Miller

Jesus Christ, tom, we’re not talking about Uncle Jack who starts bitching about the Mexicans when he’s had a few at Thanksgiving. We’re talking about actual Nazi skinheads. God help me, celebrity Nazi skinheads. Yeah, if I had a cousin who liked showing off all his swastika tattoos, that fucker would not be invited to Easter anymore.

Pretty sure he’d never get past HR at my current job, either.

That’s overstating it a bit. Did you read the article? The guy in question got caught up in the white supremacist punk scene in the 80s when he was a teenager. Over the last several decades there is no evidence that he has had any racist views. The only thing that looks is that 5 years ago he took a picture with a group of people in a bar that included someone who played bass (bass players are celebrities now?) in a skinhead band for a couple of years. He claims it was the first time he had seen any of them in decades and there is no evidence to show he is lying.

The question remains how long do you hold the stupid things someone says as a teenager against them? Because looking at this apparently 30 years isn’t long enough.

[Miller]

@Loach

That’s overstating it a bit. Did you read the article? The guy in question got caught up in the white supremacist punk scene in the 80s when he was a teenager. Over the last several decades there is no evidence that he has had any racist views. The only thing that looks is that 5 years ago he took a picture with a group of people in a bar that included someone who played bass (bass players are celebrities now?) in a skinhead band for a couple of years. He claims it was the first time he had seen any of them in decades and there is no evidence to show he is lying.

That was not an argument for how the former skinhead food critic should be treated, it was an argument for how the former skinhead food critic should act when he runs into a less-than-former skinhead at a bar.