Should we seek to change racist atitudes?

Great Debates
1

This thought occured to me when reasing a post by Askia in this thread. Askia states:

Which begs the question: Should we as a society seek to supress or change a racist individual’s thought, or do people have the right to be racist in the first place? I despise racism, but I have thought about this matter and come to the reluctant conclusion that people have the right to be racist if they want. Now, I’m not talking about acting upon that belief, no siree Bob! No person should be discriminated against because of their race, or subject to abuse or be denied opportunities or treated differently because they are black, white, yellow or red. No, what I am talking about is the attitude itself.* Something that happened last week to me is a good example.

I went out to a bar in my neighborhood that I had never been to before to have a few beers and watch the Ravens crush the Packers. The bartender there was an older man, probably in his early 60s, and we spent most of the game shooting the shit about football. At one point a black man came in to buy carry out, and the bartender greeted him with “Can I help you?” and sent him on his way after his transaction with “Thank you, have a Merry Christmas”. At the end of the game, while I was finishing my last beer, the TV coverage was wrapping up with a rapid montage of clips from the game. One of the clips showed Randy Hymes celebrating after a catch, and the bartender turned to me and said (There were only a couple people in the bar at the time, all white) “Man, I hate how those niggers showboat after making a play. What happened to acting like you’ve been there before?” Now, I won’t say I was shocked, but I was certainly disapointed. I had had a very convivial evening talking football with this gent, and I felt as if a dash of cold water had been thrown in my face. I let him know it too. I finished my beer, gathered my things, and as I was walking out I called him over and told him quietly that I had been offended by his remark. I wasn’t loud or angry or anything, I just told him “I thought you should know that this offended me.” He said that he wasn’t going to promise that he might not say it again in the future, to which I replied “That’s fine, and I certainly wouldn’t presume to tell you how to think, I just thought you should know because I would want to know if I offended someone inadvertently”. I then wished him Merry Christmas and left.

The end reult of this is a trivial one. I won’t be returning to that bar when I want a beer, at least not when that guy is working. But it did set me to thinking, and the above quote from the other thread crystalized my thinking on this matter. Yes, that guy is a racist and thus an idiot. Doesn’t he, however, have a right to be a racist and an idiot? From what I observed, he didn’t treat black patrons differently from white, so whose business is it anyway what he privately thinks? I think racism is wrong, and evil and stupid, but to claim that because of that we should try to change how people think? That smacks too much as creating thought crimes for my comfort.

*The one big argument against what I’m saying here is that it’s difficult- if not impossible - for most people to separate their thoughts from their actions. I do realize that. However, I think that because society as a whole condemns racism, and IMHO blatant overt racism is a thing of the past ( I know it still does happen, but not with anything even close to the frequency that it happened in the past; 40 years ago it was the norm in many parts of the country and accepted in most of the rest. Now it’s definitely an aberration.), the number of racist people is going to continue to shrink. There will always be some, I believe that it’s a part of being human, but I know dozens of people my age (38) who have parents and other members of their family from previous generations who are racist and they find these attitudes shameful. As long as racist actions are considered wrong and condemened by society as a whole, the actual impact that racist people will have is minimal, and their numbers will eventually shrink until they are but a small, small percentage of the population as a whole.

2

Of course people have the right to be racist but others have the right to make attempts to change their mind or to shun them for their beliefs.

There’s nothing wrong with changing the way people think provided you don’t go about it via torture or threats.

Marc

3

Ok, granted, but how about using legal means? Should there be a legal option? Suppose you and I were sittng together and witnessed the bartender’s statement, should we be able to go swear out a complaint against him that would leat him to be fined, jailed or otherwise punished if found guilty? That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Obviously if an individual convinces another to change their mind about something that’s just a part and parcel of interacting as humans.

4

Definately not. Freedom of speech and all that. The American President said it well:

President Andrew Shepherd: "America isn’t easy. America is advanced citizenship. You’ve got to want it bad, because it’s gonna put up a fight. It’s gonna say, “You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil who is standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the ‘land of the free’? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the ‘land of the free.’”

Shun them, boycott their business, attempt to persuade them with virtuous actions, but that is all. Time will eventually make them extinct.

5

Maybe not a right to change racist attitude, but I do think we have not only a right, but a duty to raise the next generation as free from it as possible.

6

Well, coming from a man from Texas and hangs out in local neighborhood bars on occasion:

Sure we should have the right. But why throw your pearls before swine? :rolleyes:

7

As someone else said, of course people have the right to be racist. To an extent, people even have the right to act on their racism: the KKK is free to organize and hold rallies and distribute literature. (They are, of course, not free to invade someone’s private property and burn a cross, or to harrass people.) I may be very, very wrong on this, but I think business and organizations have the right to discriminate as well: aren’t there still some private country clubs, for example, who don’t allow blacks/Jews/Catholics/etc.?

But, more importantly, as has also been pointed out, the rest of us also have the right – and, you could say, the duty – to protest these actions, be it through boycotting, picketing, etc.

I wonder if it wouldn’t be a better idea if you did go back when he’s there. Chances are that nobody else is going to change his mind; maybe you can. Not that I’m saying you should go and lecture him straight away, but if the topic comes up you could do some more to show him your way of thinking.

8

They are certainly free to hold these attitudes and even express them non-violently, but fighting ignorance; it’s what we’re all here for and you did the right thing in the bar by telling him you disagreed.

9

To me it would seem if the bartender was fined or jailed for what he said, it would basically be for saying a naughty word. So are you going to fine or arrest anyone that says that word? I hear that word used more often by black people now than white. Would black people be arrested for using it as well? And what about the words that most women find offensive? Or words other groups find offensive? Seems you would have an awfully long list.

And if you removed that word from the bartender’s statement, and replaced it with another word, it may or may not be racist. If he had simply said, “Man, I hate how those football players showboat after making a play. What happened to acting like you’ve been there before?” I don’t think most would find that offensive. Some would though, jumping on the idea that because more black players do that than white players, he must be a racist if he doesn’t like it.

Had he said, “Man, I hate how those black players showboat after making a play. What happened to acting like you’ve been there before?” Then I think most would find singling out black players like that would be considered racist. But some wouldn’t, because he is just stating his own opinion about the behavior of a certain group, specifically black football players who do certain things after they score.

Had he said, “Man, I hate how players showboat after making a play. What happened to acting like you’ve been there before? I don’t notice the white players doing it as much as the black players.” Then the debate would really get heated. Some would find that racist, but some would argue that he is just stating a fact. Do you want people fined or jailed for stating facts that include any reference to race?" I would think that would harm race relations much more than help them.

We have seen on these boards time after time, what is considered to be a racist comment by some, is not a racist to others. Many times it is a matter of perception. I really don’t want to see our courts tied up with trying to define what is and isn’t a racist thing to say.

The other day I was called out by a friend for what she considered was a racist remark I made. She knows me well enough to know I am not a racist. But in her world, what I said was racist, and she wanted me to know that I shouldn’t say such things, because others who didn’t know me well would assume I was a racist if they overheard my remark.

I told her I thought she had gone over the edge, and by nit-picking every word I used, she is actually hurting her cause. She disagreed, and started to think perhaps I was racist. Things went downhill from there. I told her she was nuts if she could throw out all she knew about me for all these years, and judge me a racist based on one sentance. She thought that was how racism should be fought, by focusing on the subtle hints of racism that people who think they aren’t racist sometimes say, exposing what they really are. She thought by pointing out my racist remark, I could then face my racist tendencies, and then correct them. She just wanted to help me be a better person, and was surprised I didn’t appreciate her help.

And what was it I said that revealed to her my hidden racist thoughts? When I told her about a party I was having, and she asked who else I invited, I ran off the list of names I could think of. I mentioned a name she didn’t know, she asked who he was. I saw him sitting at the bar on the other side of the room, and pointed to him and said, “I guess you haven’t met my friend Dan yet, he is the black guy at the end of the bar.”

That is what exposed me as a closet racist in her mind. Number one, I shouldn’t have referred to his race at all, she said. He happened to be the only black guy around there. He was wearing jeans and a college sweatshirt, just like all the other guys he was sitting with. It would have seemed silly to me to try to single him out by using anything else. “The guy with the jeans and U of L sweatshirt, dark hair, brown eyes.” would have described pretty much everyone down at that end of the bar. I chose what was the most likely thing for her to notice, the one black guy in a group of non-black guys.

Number two, she said I was wrong to call him “black”, I should have said African American. I told her if she was going to call racism on ridiculous things, I would to. I told her she was racist for assuming just because he was black( the word he always uses when needing to describe his race) he was an African American. Isn’t that what racism is? When you assume something about someone because of the color of their skin? Instead of focusing the individual, you focus and draw conclusions based on what you know, or have heard, about other members of the group they belong to. I told her I felt a need to point out her own racism, so she could be a better person. This did not go over with her at all. She was very offended I called her a racist. At least she knew how I felt.

And did that exchange change anything? Yes, a friendship is now fractured. Am I going to change the words I use because of it? No, I refer to my black friends as black. That is the word they use. I think it would be silly to use any other word. If I met a black person who used the word African American to describe himself, I would use that word when refering to him, but not all black people. I just don’t assume everyone who is black, is an African American. And in my friend’s mind, that somehow makes me a racist. And since she does use the phrase "African American, she is somehow better, more enlightened, a champion in the fight against racism in America? That entitles her to make judgements on others, as to whether they are racist or not? To me that is just crazy. I am going to let my actions speak for how I feel about people who are of a different race than my own. I am not going to run around waiting for people to use certain words so I can jump on them and accuse them of being a racist. In my experience, that only makes things worse.

10

The best cure for racism is probably time. Every year more non-whites rise to positions of fame, power or prominence, every year there are more interracial marriages producing offspring with a foot in more than one “community,” and every year more people who can remember Jim Crow fondly (or at all) pass from the scene. Racists gradually come to appear to be a bunch of harmless, crotchety old eccentrics.

Down south (if Florida counts) where I live, I’ve been in more than one bar that can definitely be classified as a “redneck” bar (based on style, decor, apparent origins of most of the crowd, and a predominance of countrified karaoke selections), where nobody raises an eyebrow if a black guy comes in – or even makes out with a white girl in public.

11

My point is, yes, we can try to convince someone they’re wrong, but in the end, if someone is determined to be a racist jackass, sadly, they have that right.

BUT…in the future generations, our children, and such, we should try and educate them that these attitudes are wrong. In fact, I think we have a responsibility to do so.

Make sense?

12

I think this is an overly optimistic viewpoint.

A lot of people think that civilization advances steadily and things like bigotry fall inevitably by the wayside. Unfortunately, anything producing societal upheavals (including a major economic depression) is likely to stimulate latent hatreds. The further bad events fade from memory, the easier it’ll be for history to repeat itself. Consider just the examples from 1900 onwards. It’s a depressing list.

The point, I guess, is that we shouldn’t get complacent about even innocent-seeming examples of bigotry. I think it would be entirely appropriate for the bar owner in Dave’s example to get the idea there could be economic fallout from his “innocent” remarks.*
*I would be hesitant to return to any establishment after (in effect) calling one of their employees a bigot. Not if they or their co-workers were involved in serving me food or drink.

13

This is where it gets tricky. How can we define “innocent-seeming examples of bigotry?” In my earlier post I mentioned about the friend who feels my calling a friend “black” instead of an “African American” would be an example of bigotry. I certainly don’t agree. And some people feel any reference to race, can be a sign of bigotry. If we are going to start to punish people for something, it better be very clear what is OK and what isn’t.

In the OP’s example, what I found most offensive was his use of the word nigger. But I really can’t see making someone pay a fine for using it. There are other words that are also offensive, who is going to make this list of finable words?

And the thought behind the remark made behind the bartender, would be found to be racist by some, but not everyone. Had he used the word “yahoos” instead of niggers, some would think that was still racist, trying to cover it a bit. Some would not think that at all, thinking he was comparing the younger players who are just in the sport for big money, vs the players of years ago who played because they truly loved the game, and didn’t get paid much for it. So I really don’t see how you can know which really are innocent comments, not reflecting racism, and which really are racist.

14

No. But I can see letting management know, possibly without identifying anyone specifically, that that sort of talk is unacceptable and will lead to your doing business elsewhere.

Bigotry is a kind of disease. You can be satisfied that the overall incidence is limited, and relax. Or you can be concerned that the incidence and carrier rate will permit further epidemics in the future, and constantly keep working at eradication (and quarantine of the active cases).

15

OK, I understand now. The economic fallout you mentioned would be from people choosing not to return, or word of mouth not to go there, not a fine imposed by the government.

I agree with that.

16

Absolutely, I agree with you. I’m just pointing out that some foks wont listen to reason no matter how hard you try.

17

Duh, after rereading my last post; I realize it a little redundant. Pls ignore. :smack:

18

An office I once worked in hired a temp, who about midway through her first day said how she’d been previously working in an office with a black lady and “you know how lazy they are–they never get anything done.” I mumbled something about how I hadn’t noticed–then I called the service, told them their temp had made racist remarks and that I wanted somebody else. They got her out of there and I assume they told her why. So I’m sure that didn’t change her attitude–that blacks were lazy–but maybe she kept her mouth shut about it in the future.

And just to prove no good deed goes unpunished, this temp’s replacement was a person who made a two-toed sloth look speedy by comparison. (Not that the lady in question was Ms. Efficiency herself.)

19

Which is why we need to reach them when they’re young.

20

You say:

And yet, in my opinion, the scenario you describe is just that.