Could you expound further on your thoughts here?
It just seems to me that calling somebody a nigger is pretty overt racism.
I know white kids who call each other “nigger,” affectionately.
Well of course, but my entire point is that (from what I observed on one single night 10 days ago) the bartender’s racism had zero negative effect on his black patrons, so what difference does it make?
I am a “woman of color” (doesn’t that sound just too PC? - I need a photo of a basket of kittens to match the sweetness and light).
The vice president of the company I work for gave me a tour of the office, and explained that the office staff is a very diverse group. (at this point, Jali, the sometimes overly sensitive when it comes to matters of race, was gearing up for the cringe). He went on to explain the diversity: well seasoned architects, mid- career architects and interns.
I felt like an idiot for assuming that he was going to make one of those “we are the world” statements and I must be a racist to have expected it from a wonderful caring man whos skin color differs from mine. I needed the attitude adjustment.
What about the effect on his white patrons, who might feel “empowered” to let loose their own invective (in the bar or elsewhere where it could conceivably have an impact on blacks)?
But don’t we already try to change racist attitudes? Growing up in the early 80’s it seemed our curriculum was pretty slanted towards promoting diversity. You see this same debate played out today with all the hubbub about whether or not school libraries should have books that portray gays as human beings.
I think it’s the socially responsible thing to try and eradicate prejudice and to help people be able to see and understand people based on their own merits as a person.
Your situation I think however is a bit different. To me what was said wasn’t really racist. It was a pretty stupid comment, but we all say pretty stupid things all the time. I’d be hard pressed to believe anyone who ever said they never made a comment about some group’s perceived stereotypes. I do it all the time, usually in jest, sometimes not. But does that make me racist? As uncomfortable as it may be there is usually a little truth in stereotypes. It’s unrealistic to think people won’t make such comments.
As for dealing with the sort of racism that really impacts peoples lives, then yes that is something that must be dealt with and the only way to really do that is by changing peoples minds by educating them. Anti-discrimination laws are pretty easy to get around, hate-crime laws don’t keep you from getting the shit kicked out of you. It’s a slow process of education and exposure that takes generations to accomplish and I firmly be should be part of public process.
Privately however, and even though I do get personally disgusted by private schools that preach hatred. Worse yet, kids that are effectively brainwashed by being home schooled by white supremacist groups. (Mind you even those home schooled by new age hippies makes me take pause.) I’m going to have to stick with the stance that this is a free county and hope that we will eventually stamp out racism as people wake up to see that it is the best for society.
I tend to agree with the bartender. Intentional, pre-scripted endzone celebrations are just about the most annoying displays of self-aggrandizement in an otherwise wonderfully team-oriented sport.
Oddly, I cannot think of a single instance where a white guy did one. Can anybody else?
Generally, white guys tend to just react “spur of the moment” by yelling or pumping their fists or whatever. I saw Michael Irvin doing “celebration analysis” on several of the (lame, IMO) prepared celebrations, and his highlight reel included a white guy doing the typical white guy “woohoo! I scored!” thing. His analysis? “Awful. Totally unprepared. No originality at all.”
Yeah, dipshit, his celebration was bad because it was genuine. These prepared celebrations are not. If it isn’t a black thing, it’s stunning how strong the random correlation is.
Anyway, I find it immensely distasteful, on the level of the bartender’s use of the word nigger in public to random strangers.
Thanks for your perfect example of typical oblivious racism. I hope you don’t expect any of us to actually accept the 100% bullshit rationalization you just insulted my intelligence with as to why the white version of X phenomenon is good, and the black version is bad. The white celebrations are more genunine? Did you even read your own post before you sent it?
Honestly, if you think the staged baby wiping, river dancing, maitre’de impersonating, cell phone and pants dropping simulations are genuine emotional expressions, then…
From the linked thread:
I appreciate the effort to not post insults in GD. It will probably be better, in the future, if you (and everyone) simply notes that they are calling someone into the Pit (with link).
I don’t think you did anything “wrong,” but it does make my “cute” meter hum. As noted in the linked thread, itself, it also had the effect of riling up folks against you.
Duly noted.
Since TVeblen locked that thread, I pitted her, and I tagged you with some shrapnel at the end of it.
Also, if you’d like to respond, pizzabrat, I guess you’ll need to use the new pit thread.
But of you can find it here.
Doesn’t really have the same “flow”, but hey, you make the rules.
Both of you…
I’m not even sure I consider the example in the OP to be racism. The bartender wasn’t hostile to black customers, or telling rude jokes about them after they left. He objected to doofus football players who showboat in the end zone, who happen, in his experience as a fan, mostly to be black.
If I say I dislike English soccer fans who travel through Europe behaving like hoodlums, am I a racist?
I tend to agree with you, but I think his use of the word “niggers” made the comment offensive. Had he not used that word, I wouldn’t have taken it as a racist remark.
Sure he did. Do you think he would have said:
in front of any of his black patrons?
He made his comments in a context where he wagered it wouldn’t get him in trouble or cost the bar any business. He wagered wrong in your case. Telling him about it was a class act on your part, IMO. That way he knows exactly what is affecting his business, and can make an informed decision from there how many of his less popular private thought he chooses to exercise his right to express while at work.
There’s a moral problem with being a hoodlum. There’s nothing immoral about dancing in celebration at the end of a touchdown. That most showboaters are black gives an Occam’s Razor style explanation for an otherwise bemusing nationwide invective against such dances. What offends you is the sight of proud black millionares flaunting their latest success in front of the nation. There’s a history of whites being offended by blacks doing nothing more than asserting themselves in this country, summed up neatly by the term “uppity Negro”. This issue is no different.
And yes, of course racist attitudes should be attacked.
First of all, racism is bad because it fosters animosity between the nation’s citizens, fruitless animosity for something that can’t be changed so no one can “win”. All that’s born of this animosity is societal decay - a society can’t be healthy when huge segments of the population opposes the very existance of other segments.
Racist attitudes invariably extend into action. The bartender’s attempting to sharehis racist ideas with you was an action. He’s helping to keep this animosity afloat by voicing it - he should be convinced that all of our American lives would be much more enjoyable if we weren’t at each others throats about something that none of us can change.
I agree racist attitudes should be attacked. But you got to pick your battles. At most this is just a distasteful, ugly bigotry. I prefer to encourage these attitudes be vocalized so I know the type of person I’m dealing with. Bigotry, prejudice and racism are all the more insidious behind a facade of politeness and insincere civility. In some ways we had it easier in the sixties when this was blatant. Now we’ve got to work to convince people some statements aren’t that benign.
Would you put my statement I mentioned in an earlier post, “I guess you haven’t met my friend Dan yet, he is the black guy at the end of the bar.” in that category?
The problem I am seeing now is that in attempt to make race relations better, searching out signs for signs of racism can be more harmful that helpful.
If I am going to be called a racist for pointing out someone is black, or referring to them as black, then very quickly I am going to just give up. In my experience, it has only been white people who have done this to me. My black friends have never accused me of being racist.
But when people say things like Pizza Brat, "That most showboaters are black gives an Occam’s Razor style explanation for an otherwise bemusing nationwide invective against such dances. What offends you is the sight of proud black millionares flaunting their latest success in front of the nation. There’s a history of whites being offended by blacks doing nothing more than asserting themselves in this country, summed up neatly by the term “uppity Negro” I am going to think absolutely anything I say that might be negative against someone black will get me labled as a racist.
If the term racism is going to mean anything anymore, as something that should fought against, it needs to be saved for the times it is clearly warrented, and not used lightly to describe something that might be considered racism by some.
I agree with you when you say you’ve got to pick your battles. I would rather see everyone pulling together to fight the big battles, than have some out there who seem to just want to look for ways to find certain statements racist.