A clarification/correction about when I mentioned Judas - a issue that I am still undecided with, I am referring to people willing to give up Christianity under threat of civil authority.
I guess it’ll go like this:
Everyone’s sitting in church one day, yawning. Rick Santorum looks around at all the bored people and finally says, “Heck, I’ve got a confession. I’m bored too. Heck, I’ve just been pretending to be a Christian all these years.”
The parishioners look sheepish.
The pastor agrees. “Yes, I too have just been going through the motions. I haven’t believed for years now. I just didn’t have the courage to admit it before now.”
One by one, the churchgoers chime in with their agreement. They were all just churchgoers because that’s what everyone else expected.
So Rick Santorum gets up again. “Well, I guess no one in here really ever was a Christian. What a bunch of hypocrites we all were! And I bet there’s plenty more like us out there.”
Nods from the congregation.
So Rick says, “Wait, I’ve got an idea! Since no one here is really a Christian, let’s round up all the people who really were Christians, and send them to camps! And let’s have a giant homosexual orgy, right now! Anyone have any Oxycontin I can snort? Let’s kill the unborn babies of any pregnant women in attendance and worship our Dark Master, the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young! Everyone with me?”
Well personally I think we are evolving past the “Storm Trooper” era in our society. Governments are going to be governing more like corporations, and have certain amoral criteria by which they choose to govern, that largely won’t be threatened by a lot of the things that humanity in its adolescence thought of as REALLY BIG FUCKING DEALS. I honestly think that we are moving into an era where putting people in concentration camps will be considered a kind of pointless tactic, and will be relegated to the way we now see human sacrifice, as primitive and senseless.
As for pretending to be Christian, I don’t think it is quite as malevolent as all that for most people. With Bush, I am not sure. But with most Christians, I think they are Christian in the way most Americans are Christian, it’s a part of their cultural history, they are trying to identify with the populace of the nation they were born into, and are looking for cultural references by which to prove to Joe Six-Pack, Hey, I’m one of the guys. That’s why I think people like Der Trihs are kind of silly with their fear of Christians, because most people are pretty passively Christian and won’t really get their hackles up unless you start talking shit about Christianity to them, which is something I wouldn’t put past Der Trihs to do. So can I see Der Trihs being persecuted for being an atheist? Yeah, possibly, he might have as big a mouth in real life as he has online, in which case I can see him getting beaten up, if not he’ll probably be alright.
Perhaps, I couldn’t say.
Ba-dump Bump! Thanks, I’m here till Thursday! Try the veal!
Do you know if that nuance would be lost on Kanicbird?
Who defines what it means to be a Christian? You? From whence do you derive that authority?
I don’t know who they are. You’re the one claiming that they exsist, you tell me who they are.
Non-Christians who claim to be Christians but really aren’t when judged by your own mysterious metric are seeking to outlaw Christianity?
Can you tell us precisely who these people are? Is George Bush one? John Kerry? Both? Neither?
So Der Trihs is going to outlaw Christianity? Even other atheists are making fun of him. I think you overestimate his power.
So are buggy whips, but no one is going to lock you up for owning one.
Except that Christians, as a body, do not hate either of those groups. The majority of the people who support abortion and gay rights - for that matter, the majority of abortion doctors and homosexuals - are Christians themselves. Oh, that’s right, they’re only really Christians if they agree with you politically.
What are the “ruling classes” in America? Who are the members of these classes?
Can you provide an example of the government manipulating the media to present an anti-Christian message?
This is simple lunacy. What on Earth makes you think this would even be possible?
Yes, that would be lovely.
How about “Not vote for them, thereby depriving them of the political power to institute their agenda?”
Who is going to enforce this ban? The military? Where do you think soldiers come from? What makes you think they’d obey an order to shut down their own churches, and the churches of their friends and families?
I don’t know about that. You both make vague, dire predictions about the future with no foundation on obervable reality. Try formating your posts as quatrains, and there’d be no substantial difference between the two of you.
The Easter Bunny is going to outlaw Christianity?
Never claimed that you did. I was merely pointing out that the commercialization of Christmas has been going on since the 19th century, and Christians still seem to be allowed to worship freely throughout the Western world. If it’s part of some vast plot against Christians, it’s an amazingly inefficient plot.
Huh. You actually posted something that I can’t find anything to disagree with.
Creepy.
Maureen Laws can’t be changed, the Constitution can’t be amended or re-interpreted? Governments can’t be changed or defeated (from external or internal forces)?
What world do you live in, I may want to move there.
The OP was 'afraid of Christains" I was giving a reason why some** people **may be willing turn against them when the gov’t decides to for it’s own (power grab) reasons.
Excellent, my plan worked. My oppression of Der Trihs is now complete, as the atheists make fun of him too!
Your SOUL IS MINE RED SHIRT!!!
Erek
I have to give you credit, it was a great try and sort of humorous.
I see it as more as Christians are depriving you of your reproductive rights and want to kill you and/or throw you into Christian concentration camps for it. Christians are depriving you of your sexual orientation rights and want to kill you and/or throw you into Christian concentration camps.
We the Gov’t what to help you the people, We will pass the ‘freedom to the people act (or executive order)’ which monitor all your internet communications for your own benefit and will order all churches be seized, demolished and sold for scrap, the proceeds going to help offset a tax cut. Anyone caught practicing Christianity after this act is passed will be sent to ‘Good Citizen School’ (code name for my version of Christian Concentration Camps).
This will be the true divide between the people who have accepted Christ and ‘lip service’ Christians, the mass exodus of Christians, and expose the true number of Christians.
I think that’s an example of “moving the goalposts” (going from Christian to GOOD Christian)
<snip>
Yeah, but will you be goining in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line?
As for the rest of the discussion of “who’s a Christian, and who isn’t . . .”
Whoa. This thread is making me feel a little woozy. I need to sit down for a bit, before I pa. . .
<Grooaannn>
What the hell just happened? Why do I have a haggis in my sporran?
For that matter, what the FUCK am I doing with a sporran?
I’ve found that the government doesn’t generally profit from crushing the economy outright. YMMV.
Erek
Only after I am confident in my resistance to Iocaine powder.
Erek
Yeah, all this love crap is a sure sign they’re up to something nasty. :rolleyes:
Look. People have done horrible things in the name of their God for years without number. But look at it this way: imagine a tree. It converts carbon dioxide to oxygen, it keeps soil from eroding, it’s a great place to climb and make a fort or a swing.
One day, a man breaks a branch from a tree and beats someone over the head with it until they die.
This makes the tree bad?
Without religion, people will find other justifications to pursue their own agendas. War can be justified for dozens of reasons, as I’m sure we can all agree. As can hatred and intolerance. Anything that engenders strong feelings of any sort can be twisted, and religion’s one of the strongest sources of emotion out there.
Things in America are getting more conservative. We’re entering the Fifties again. Will they get better? Oh, probably. Will they get worse? They might, but I don’t think they’ll get that bad.
Oh and by the way, Polycarp? If you’re still reading this thread? Thank you. Thank you, thank you. It’s partly due to your influence, partly due to the influence of a lovely minister friend, and partly due to a surprising revelation on the road between Houston and Austin some time ago that… well, that now I’m enrolled in classes at my local Episcopal church to finally get confirmed. I don’t like going a week without church now; it makes me feel complete and at peace the way that karate practice does. 
To all the rest of you, no, I’m not trying to convert you nor anyone else. It’s not my place. Religion is so intensely personal that trying to force it on another person is ludicrous in my eyes. But having an hour every week to get away from the mundane and the material is remarkably enriching. The rest… well, YMMV.
Sure, the Constitution can be changed. First, it takes an act of congress. And it has to be a quorum: that means the majority of the members of congress have to be there for the vote, not just two Senators at three A.M on a Sunday. And the vote has to pass by two-thirds of that quorum.
Now, there are currently 100 Senators and 435 Representatives making up the US Congress. At least 51 Senators and 218 Representatives would have to be present for the vote. Of these, 145 Representative and 34 Senators would have to be in favor of abolishing Christianity. So there’d have to be at least 178 members of Congress who are secretly anti-Christian, despite any and all public proclamations and behavior to the contrary.
But that’s still not enough! After Congress passes the ammendment, it still takes ratification by the legislature of three quarters of the states to make it into the constitution! This requires hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, of your Trojan Christians to have succesfully been elected to government without ever having their blind hatred of their religion revealed to the masses. In terms of conspiracy theories, this puts the Apollo Moon hoax to shame!
And all of this would have to happen quickly enough that the vast majority of voters who consider themselves Christian (even if they don’t fit your ridiculously restrictive definition) would not have time to catch wind of it and vote the bastards out. And, of course, the majority of the military and police forces throughout the nation would have to go along with it if it were ever going to be enforced. And both of those organizations are staffed and run by people who - once again - overwhelmingly identify themselves as Christians.
It’s called the real world, sweetcakes. You’re welcome to move here any time you like.
I enjoy this thread. Thank you all for your posts. carry on.
Oh don’t I wish, but that is not for me to judge.
I have scriptional backing that God does not want lip service and that to be ‘saved’ you must believe and be baptized.
I think anyone who is willing to give up their belief sort of gives up Christianity by definition.
OK thanks for the leeway here, I will define these people who have not accepted Christ as their savoir.
No, Unknown to me, Unknown to me, Unknown to me.
Der Trihs seems like one of the people who could believe the lie that Christians want to place him in a conc. camp. The Gov’t can use that lie to get his support.
Yes you are correct I was talking about the anti Christian propaganda that will emerge.
1 Why are you limiting it to America - and I assume you mean the USA, and not the ‘new worlds’
2 Today some of the ruling classes would be the Bushes, Kennedy’s, Clintons, and the most powerful group in the US, the SCOTUS members.
Given enough time I’m sure I can, but it is not relevant, this is how I see the future when the gov’t outlaws Christianity.
Re: Churches outlawed
Actually thinking things will stay the same is lunacy. Nothing man does will last forever, no gov’t, no structure, what makes you think this is impossible. We right now have a religion which wants to take over the world, one that is willing to put very long range plans into action, which may take 1000’s of years, but they believe that the world is theirs. Some of these people are sitting on a vast source of energy that the rest of the world needs, so they can get funds, funds to recute troops, funds to buy weapons and technologies, funds to create weapons of mass destruction, funds to create delivery rockets. if they win, certainly Churches (and homosexuals) will be outlawed. This is just one of many ways it could happen.
Re: Name
For some reason I get the name Hisler
No wait a sec
But Der Trihs has been told by the gov’t that Christians want to put him in a Conc Camp, he will vote for someone who wants the ‘rights of the people act’ and the tax cut that comes along w/ selling churches for scrap.
I suspect that most will be voluntary shutdown, then is it easy to go after the remaining 1 %. If a member of the military objects on religious grounds, well you are either for us or against us, do you choose the firing squad or lethal injection.
You took this out of context, the E.B. is another example of a Christian Holy day being turned into a warm and fuzzy holiday, further proof of erosion of true Christianity.
Just like the above plan for Moslems for taking over the world. Actually it seems quite efficient at distracting people from the true reason of Christmas
.
a
IIRC there are 2 ways well perhaps 3.
the 1st is what you post, the 2nd is by the states, the 3rd is a constitutional convention, and for that matter the 4th is by the SCOTUS, which from my understanding if they find that it states in in the Constitution it stated and all churches must be sold for scrap that means it’s in there.
Also we have the option of the overthrow of the US gov’t.
Good job of not judging there.
And who, precisely, are these people? You’re awfully convinced that there are enough of them to look the other way if the government (for reasons that continue to elude me) outlaws their religion and locks up their erstwhile co-religionists. Who are these people? If they’re so common, you should be able to name some names.
But the vast majority of Americans have accepted Christ as their savior. Why would these vast majorities allow the state to outlaw their religion? Why would they vote these people into office in the first place?
Well, then who are you talking about? They’ve got to be pretty powerful people, to effect such a vast, bedrock change in the American social structure. Surely you can point out a few of them to us.
So, they can either pander to Der Trihs, or they can pander to the enourmous block of voters who identify as Christians, and the even larger (through overlap) block of voters who support freedom of religion. Hmm. Now that’s what I call a tough choice! Der Trihs or 99% of the rest of the population of the US. Der still only gets to vote once per election, right?
Emerge from where? Who will diseminate it, and who will listen to it? Other than Der Trihs, I mean.
I thought America was the new world. Are you talking about (overwhelmingly Catholic) South America? Or are talking about colonizing other planets?
I thought you didn’t know if Bush was part of this alleged anti-Christian cabal in the government. Now you’re saying he is one?
Please: take the time. This is endlessly amusing to me.
Well, yeah, on a long enough timeline, eventually Christianity will die out, just like every other human government or institution, just like humanity itself. Maybe through violent suppression, more likely through simple attrition. I’m not really being kept up at night at the thought of an Islamic invasion of the US, though. It’s going to be centuries, at the very minimum, before they’re in a position to do so, and by that time, who knows what Islam will look like? Christianity today bears very little similarity to the Christianity of the middle ages. I expect Islam will change just as much. Wether it will change for the better or for the worst is impossible to predict.
Regardless, you’re moving the goalposts, as you have up to this point maintained that Christianity will be outlawed by a domestic American political movement, not as the result of an invasion by a foreign nation.
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When has the government told Der Trihs any such thing?
Why do you think it would be voluntary? Why do you think anyone would go along with this in the first place? Why are you so certain that most Christians do not have a strong faith? What is your evidence for these beliefs?
You didn’t provide any context. And what’s wrong with how Easter is being celebrated?
No, actually, it hasn’t. No one has forgotten the meaning of Christmas. There’s about as much truth to that as there is to your Christian concentration camp delusions, or your paranoias about world-conquering Muslims.
Your understanding is typically poor. First, the states can propose an ammendment, but that doesn’t change the requirements for passing the ammendment. It still has to pass congressional muster. You almost have a point about constitutional conventions, but that still requires the approval of two-thirds of the state legislatures, and the convention itself would be made up of the members of congress. And while your attempt to bring strict constitutional constructionism into the debate was amusingly pathetic, you’re going to have to try extra hard to justify the Supremes interpreting “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” as giving free reign for the sale of Christian churches as scrap.
The true reason for Christmas has never been a secret. Undermine the Mithraic/pagan holiday of Winter Solstice/Yule and replace it with a Christian one.
The Easter Bunny has been around longer than Christ. You may find this site helpful: