How can you fight that of which you are ignorant? (dismantling racism) (long, sorry)

I recently had an a rather upsetting and unsettling experience with a former high school classmate, one whom I respect quite highly and who also happens to be black. Our interaction was re a couple of FB posts I came across on his feed. These posts were discussing the “white supremacist patriarchy” that the U.S. is founded upon and upon which racism today currently thrives. Both posts were “shared” posts of black-rights activists and both were posted in a relatively short period of time.

As a white, middle-class man, I felt a sense of disconnect from the trauma and struggle that I saw in the words that I read in those posts. Intellectually I understood them but I had no personal experience of being on the victimization end of a culture that is/was made to keep the white man in the position of power at the expense of other racial groups (most notably the black community). I’m not an activist, at least not currently and officially. I first need to be an “activist” in the multi-pronged disaster that is the current state of my own life (;)). But inequality is something that is always on my radar and something that I will push back against every time no matter what, considering that I myself am a member of a very marginalized minority group: the disabled community.

So when I came across these FB posts that made me think about these issues of racism in our country, I felt that familiar racing energy of my mind becoming engaged in critical thought process. There is nothing better than that quickening of the pulse and that fast paced movement in your brain that allows it to seemingly operate in a higher gear that it’s normal every day “cruise control”. This is what I felt as I began digesting the words of these knowledgeable black men and women and listen to them tell any who would/could listen just what they felt the ugly truth behind our country’s cultural infrastructure was and is and what it would continue to be if not exterminated.

My old HS classmate, not quite a friend but definitely a friendly acquaintance, was someone I’ve always respected for his intelligence, independence of thought and ability to speak his mind in disagreeable company. It was for these reasons, but even more importantly, because he was a black man living in America, that I turned immediately to him (he also being the source of the shared posts) and sought his perspective. It was, in my eyes, the ideal place to begin my journey of enlightenment, introspection and ultimately application of those things to affecting change.

It was due to all these reasons and more that in seeking his perspective, I asked him what he thought, given the direct impact this racist partriarchy has had on him, might be some effective strategies or means of combating this evil white supremacist patriarchy? It seemed an ideal starting point, in no small part, because this was one of the first times I had read about so many facets of oppression tied together in a coherent package and it was coming from the shared experiences of black men and women, one of which was the man who brought these words and experiences to perhaps to largest forums to be seen by others, namely Facebook. He obviously wanted more people (like me!) who could never actually experience the traumas inflicted by this racism, and had to have the privilege-encased veils lifted from their eyes in order to see the truth of this nasty story that was euphemistically labeled “The American Dream”.

As a white man who had never experienced racism or poverty, I freely acknowledge that I had benefitted greatly from the protections and comforts of white privilege. I’d probably describe white privilege as the “privilege of not having to”. Not having to worry about police abusing and killing you. Not having to worry about beiing seen as a threat and having the cops called on you, simply for being “black and in public”. Not having to worry about making sure you don’t show (justified) anger in situations as a black woman, lest your legitimate anger just be used against you as “proof” you’re just “an angry black woman”. And on and on. This privilege of not ever having to worry about the myriad little and not so little things that minorities have to worry about every single day is basically the world of middle-class America.

And this was the world from which I was emerging to ask my black classmate who so kindly shared these words on FB what his thoughts were in re to finally eliminating this behemoth of racial hate, oppression and bigotry. I was, and still am, not prepared for his answer. It was…

“Google is your friend”. Basically he said, this is not my issue, this is a white man’s issue. I wont do your homework for you. I have nothing for you. Try Google. I am still stunned and unable to grok what exactly happened. According to this black man, who has spent his entire life living under a racist patriarchy, even getting the most basic, vague precursors to the answers to these incredibly difficult questions about how to re-structure our entire national identity (foundation?) was something that white people had to look only to other white people for answers and understanding. It was a white man’s problem after all, this white supremacist patriarchy, so it was incumbent on whites, and whites alone, to figure out the solutions.

It didn’t matter how I came at this rather vexing obstacle, I was stonewalled. My words were grossly mischaracterized, misused, taken out of context. Other black friends of his on fb were coming in to the conversation, condemning me as a “portrait of the white supremacist patriarchy” and being “willfully obtuse”. All had the singular message of “figure this shit out yourself”.

But that was exactly where I had the strongest disagreement with anything that had been said. I have used a wheelchair as a paraplegic for the past 20 years, I am 40 years old. During this time, I have become acutely aware of all the insidious ways in which the disabled community in general, and wheelchair users specifically, are marginalized and treated as second class citizens by the world at large. In seeking to dismantle this society that sees wheelchair users as living lives that are simply unlivable by most able-bodied perspectives and preconceptions, the last thing I would suggest is for all those ignorant able-bodied people with their heads full of misconceptions, stereotypical “truths”, unspoken assumptions and bigoted unchallenged beliefs, to all get together and figure out how to stop being all those things. No, they need to be shown just how all those things affect the realities of the disabled people that they are directed towards. And that requires the perspectives and input from those very disabled people that all those ignorant able-bodied people are trying to figure out how to treat more equitably.

While there are certainly many differences, I’d say that is a very similar situation to that of dismantling the white supremacist patriarchy. The last thing that someone who is interested in getting rid of this ugly part of our country’s identity should do is tell all the members of that cozy middle class white privilege-benefitting community, who are all quite nicely oblivious to that which they don’t have to worry about, to form a group to figure out the best way forward towards dismantiling that racist patriarchy. That patriarchy that they’ve never had a reason to acknowledge or realize even existed. Another “not having to worry” benefit to white privilege. Probably the biggest and most meaningful privilege of all, that of never having to ever realize that privilege ever even exists in the first place.

How can this be a “white man only” problem? If that is how it is to be viewed, then it will forever be a “white man’s only” problem to solve but also forever be a problem to all the minorities as to how to survive it. Of course, I see it as a human problem. The white man does need to figure out how to change the evil, racist foundations that his original powers have always rested upon. But doing that is impossible without constant input, dialogue and the baring of of wounds from those that this violent empire has mercilessly victimized in order to maintain power.

My classmate and his friends treated me like I was part of the problem. Literally calling me “an embodiment of the white supremacist patriarchy”. My words were denigrated. As if I were actually part of what needed to be dismantled. When I was callled “willfully obtuse” I couldn’t help but feel a twinge of irony.

Sorry for the much too long post here. If anyone has stomached reading this entire thing, I really really really would appreciate your input. About whether I am blind to something that would explain my classmate’s reaction or feedback of any sort.

I can take a few guesses…

He (they) know that the problems will never be fixed, so he doesn’t want to talk about it with you.
Talking about it brings up the hurt and negativity.
The problems are so pervasive and endemic that he wouldn’t be able to cover them all anyway.
His explanations of the problems may just seem trivial to you because you won’t understand, because you have no experience.

And, let’s face it, you are an easy sell. You want to help, so you probably aren’t much a part of the problem.

But these reasons are belied by the fact that he shares multiple posts on the subject on Facebook. He obviously cares about the subject and wants more than just those who are already familiar with it to gain knowledge. And those that want to help are the only ones who will ever be a part of the solution. Those that are actively part of the problem, the racists in power, are never going to be a part of any solution. And I was labelled as part of the problem. By multiple people chiming in on our convo, all black.

Please excuse the snip. This was the paragraph I wanted to discuss. If he only said, “Google is your friend,” then the rest of your paragraph is your surmising, and frankly, I can see why this guy may have been upset.

First, how did you phrase your question? If you said something like, “Hey, Rod, you’re Black. You’ve lived under white patriarchy. What do you think of all this?” he must have been very uncomfortable, even angry. It’s a bold, rather inappropriate question to ask someone with whom you’re only a “good acquaintance.” And it implies that you’re making the white privileged mistake of assuming that the experiences and perspectives of all Blacks are the same. He may well have assumed–correctly–that the fact you were asking this question when you’re not even close enough to be a friend meant white privilege.

Second, how the heck did you get “white people had to look only to other white people for answers and understanding” out of “Look it up on Google”? Did you assume all hits on Google would be by white people? Or did you interpret the reaction of one person who’s Black as being that of all Blacks?

And last, how did you get “It’s incumbent on whites, and whites alone, to figure out the solutions” based on his advice to Google it? It’s not up to him to tutor you. Nor is it incumbent on him to help you figure this out. If you did indeed google the topic, you’d find lots of perspectives from all sorts of people. Do that. Learn. And don’t make assumptions about the authors.

I’m sorry, but just because you’re disabled (as I am, though differently) does not mean your experience is equivalent to his. You have some understanding of how society ignores and stereotypes the disabled, but you have not lived life as a person of color. (And he has not, presumably, experienced life as a person in a wheelchair does.) There’s no Get Out of Jail Free card.

I’ve seen this idea a lot on different social media. The sentiment is “I have no duty to help you figure out your racism - figure it out by yourself”. I have no idea what drives this. As you say, I spend a fair amount of time exploring disability issues and advocating for change in that space. If asked how society is stacked against the disabled, I would happy to provide a list.
I suppose it’s a nice thought - that white people built the structures that oppress people of color, so therefore they already know how it works. I think it’s a fallacy, however. There is so much history that I think engaging in a dialogue on remedies, experience, the future should be productive.
I’m sorry that happened ambi. It’s not you, it’s the times.

First of all, he said “Try Google. This is a white man’s problem. This is not my problem. There are plenty of smart white people on Google who dont seem to be confused like you. I will not be your Sherpa.” Him saying “try google” was by no means the extent of our conversation.
Secondly, he was sharing something that discussed the need to dismantle the white supremacist patriarchy. I asked him what, in his opinion, might be some strategies or means of achieving that end. That was exactly what i asked him, i simply asked for his opinion. The shared posts discussed what this patriarchy is and how it has survived but it did not discuss how to fight it. My question did not seem inappropriate in the slightest.

And lastly, OF COURSE my experiences as a disabled man do not give me direct insight into the lives and experiences of people of color. What it does provide, however, is the understanding of marginalization and the ways in which one can have legitimate life struggles twisted into false images of personal failings in order to be marginalized, silenced. I made sure to separate my experiences as a disabled man from those of people of color. I even highlighted how much i had been a beneficiary of white privilege.

I should add, i discussed posting this here and then posting a link to the thread on his fb wall once the thread had matured. So im not saying anything that im not comfortable (and actually look forward to) with him reading.

…because googling is only going to show you the White man’s perspective?

ETA - I see you clarified that he did more than “basically” say, he “actually” said. Well, he’s right, he’s not your Sherpa.

He was right.

I mean, look at your response - coming to complain (and your OP really is a complaint) to, let’s face it, not the wokest bunch of people online. Rather than actually listening to what your friend said.

I only wanted his opinion on a matter that was clearly important to him. When he said “this is a white man’s problem, its not my problem” I really got muddled. Im not complaining. Im only seeking to understand. Because i. truly cannot understand how he thinks it’s not also his problem. Its a white man’s problem to fix but we can only fix it with the help of those who we’ve affected with this problem that needs fixing. If white privilege has prevented us from having to be aware of most all of this suffering, how is it ever to be fixed without the constant feedback and baring of wounds from those that have suffered?

Are you actually reading what you’re writing? Because you’ve answered yourself quite succinctly just there.

I only shared it here because i didnt know a better way to share my original words with him. The feedback from the dopers was a secondary thing-if i got any meaningful feedback it would only make it better. Complaining is nowhere on my horizon. The only “complaint” i have is the complaint of not understanding. And it seems like the more effort i make to understand, the further i drift away from that elusive goal.

I guess i have a major blind spot here. Who has bared their wounds?

Black people have, for ages, and clearly some of them are sick of doing it, but you want them to keep doing it - for your edification.

'Cos it’s not like baring your wounds hurt, or anything.

What you wrote was effectively “How will it ever be fixed without even more suffering from those who have already suffered?”

Ok, i understand your point. But i was only asking it in response to one black man saying it was only a white mans problem, therefore he had nothing to say to me. And when i made the comment about needing input, feedback and the baring of wounds, i wasnt referring to myself specifically as that who needed such things. I was referring to those tasked with dismantling the source of such wounds in aggregate. According to my peer, that would be the white man.

And sure, i can (and am) go online and research for myself. But considering the fact that my classmate brought this subject to the very public forum of Facebook to share, i dont understand his reticence, no his outright refusal, to give me some of his personal ideas and opinions on the best means of going about combating this long-standing, long lived monster of racism and oppression. I was not asking him to bare any personal wounds to me. Only possible strategies for combating the problem in general.

Of course he didn’t and doesnt owe me one goddamned word. If i just asked him these things simply because he was a black man, I’d have a much easier time understanding his reticence. But i was only asking him his opinion of the very subjects discussed in the posts of others he felt were important enough to share on FB.

I don’t think you understand that for a lot of people, Facebook isn’t a discussion forum, it’s a venting forum.

You got a better solution?

There’s a saying where I come from: don’t be right, be smart. I agree with you, MrDibble: what the OP’s acquaintance said was exactly the right thing, and the OP should listen to him. The thing is, though, in most cases people like the OP won’t (not you, **Ambivalid **- you’re cool) listen to him, instead throwing up their hands and losing interest in the subject, and really, who does that help? If you believe in something, you can’t just count on the absolute paragons to help you, you also need the milquetoasts and the middle-of-the-roaders. So you swallow your pride and bare your wounds, because while deeply unfair and morally wrong, it’s still the smart thing to do.

Either that, or accept that the world doesn’t give a shit about you and never will, and act accordingly.

Heads he wins, tails you lose Ambivilad, If you now undertake your well intentioned and admirable investigation as instructed above, any insights you come up with or improvements you suggest could be dismissed as coming from a purely “white” perspective. From the tone of what you’ve reported to us here that seems like a decent possibility.

Sometimes the only winning move is not to play the opponents game. Also as others have said, it is a social media thing. no great insight to be gained there.

You know what, this is probably the answer to my whole issue right here. Honestly. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense of everything that didnt make sense before. Well, most of what didnt make sense before. The rest, like him saying its a white man’s problem, are maybe things that will make more sense to me the more i learn, which i still just cant help but find a bit ironic.

What i absolutely do not understand is how by being engaged in these issues, even if with blind spots and ignorance aplenty, I can be described as being “the epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy”.

Well, riddle me this: did you just shut up, then say “You’re right, bro”, and do what he told you to, without question or complaint?

I only wanted to understand why he was refusing to give me his opinion about the very things he had shared. I truly, honestly did not understand why he was so totally unwilling and why he considered it “doing my homework for me”. If I were to share something that was related to an issue that i cared about personally and someone i knew for decades came along and asked me for my opinion on an aspect of that issue, I would gladly give them my input. That was the lens thru which i was seeing this interaction with my classmate. If i would have said “you’re right bro”, i would have been being dishonest and saying something which i did not understand to be true. Im not in the habit of agreeing and acquiescing if it means speaking dishonestly.

And this was before i was here and you posted what should have been obvious to me and prevented this entire discord; that what he was doing had more to do with a need to vent that a need to discuss.

ETA: I should note that Mark, my classmate, was not the one to call me the epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy. That was a sentiment echoed by (multiple) other people chiming in on our convo. But he also did not dispute this.