How come creationists believe the earth is 6 000 years old?

[clairobscur]

I was chatting with some guys at a café and somehow we ended up talking about creationism in the USA.

I mentioned “young earth” creationists who state that the world is 6 000 years old.
Another guy, who happens to be Jewish said it didn’t make sense since according to the Jewish calendar the exodus happened 5700 years ago, and a lot of stuff happened before the exodus. (it never had crossed my mind).

So, am I wrong with my figure of 6000 years? If I’m right, how did creationists came up with 6000 years? Logically, it should be based on the length of life of bible’s characters plus some random guesses, but then, wouldn’t creationists more or less agree with the Jewish calendar? And if they don’t, aren’t they bothered by the discrepancy, or if they are how do they reconcile both estimates?

Unrelated question that came up too during the conversation : for how long did the Greeks use iron before discovering/ switching to steel?

[Peremensoe]

Ussher chronology

The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Bible by James Ussher, the Anglican Archbishop of Armagh (in what is now Northern Ireland). The chronology is sometimes associated with Young Earth Creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago.
…
In his article on Ussher’s calendar, James Barr has identified three distinct periods that Ussher had to tackle:

* Early times (Creation to Solomon). Ostensibly the easiest period, as the Bible provides an unbroken male lineage from Adam through to Solomon complete with the ages of the individuals involved. However, not all of the versions of the Bible provide the same ages — the Septuagint gives much longer ages, adding about 1500 years to the date of Creation. Ussher resolved this problem by relying on the Hebrew Bible instead.

* Early Age of Kings (Solomon to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the Babylonian captivity). The lineage breaks down at this point, with only the length of the kings' reigns being provided and a number of overlaps and ambiguities complicating the picture. Ussher had to cross-reference the Biblical records with known dates of other people and rulers to create an overall timeline.

* Late Age of Kings (Ezra and Nehemiah to the birth of Jesus). No information at all is provided in the Bible. Ussher and his counterparts therefore had to try to link a known event from this period with a dateable event in another culture, such as the Chaldeans, Persians or Romans. For instance, the death of the Chaldean King Nebuchadnezzar II (who conquered Jerusalem in 586 BC) could be correlated with the 37th year of the exile of Jehoiachin (in 2 Kings 25:27).

Using these methods, Ussher was able to establish an unadjusted Creation date of about 4000 BC. He moved it back to 4004 BC to take account of an error perpetrated by Dionysius Exiguus, the founder of the Anno Domini numbering system. Josephus indicated that the death of Herod the Great occurred in 4 BC; therefore, Jesus could not have been born after that date.

ETA: Ussher put the date of the Exodus at 1491 BC.

[Der_Trihs]

The Ussher chronology and similar calculations are I think the usual religious justification for a 6000 year old earth.

Ussher’s proposed date of 4004 BC differed somewhat from other Biblically based estimates, such as those of Jose ben Halafta (3896 BC), Bede (3952 BC), Ussher’s near-contemporary Scaliger (3949 BC), Johannes Kepler (3992 BC) or Sir Isaac Newton (c. 4000 BC).[1] Ussher’s specific choice of starting year may have been influenced by the then-widely-held belief that the Earth’s potential duration was 6,000 years (4,000 before the birth of Christ and 2,000 after), corresponding to the six days of Creation, on the grounds that “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Peter 3:8). This view had been almost completely abandoned by 1997[citation needed], six thousand years after 4004 BC. Today some biblical scholars, as well as a number of literalist evangelical Christians, believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible calling for a 6000-year-old Earth.[2]

EDIT: Bah, beaten to it!

[Asympotically_fat]

Bishop Ussher producd the most famous chronology:

Ussher chronology

By his reckoning creation happened in 4004 BC and the Exodus from Egypt in 1491 BC.

The events described in Exodus don’t really tally with the archaelogical/historical record, so it’s very difficult to place a date on the story independntly from the bible. That said circa 3700 BC seems insanely early, it pre-dates the first pharaoh by several centuries.

[Malacandra]

Rio, by Duran Duran.

[Kobal2]

Ah yes, 1920s style death rays.

[MEBuckner]

The Jewish guy in the OP was also completely wrong about the Jewish calendar. It’s currently the year 5771 in the Jewish calendar, and the calendar supposedly counts the years since the Creation–it’s an “Anno Mundi” calendar. Nobody thinks the Exodus took place in 3700 BCE (if it happened at all).

[GuanoLad]

That’s a hell of a typo in the thread title. Either it’s a misspelled “does” which doesn’t fit the grammar, or it’s a horrendously misspelled “do” with three extra letters. I’m impressed.

What annoys me most about this 4004BC nonsense is that it’s based on one person’s solitary dodgy mathematics, that flies in the face of even the most basic incontrovertible evidence, and yet entire swathes of people accept it is… well, gospel truth.

Save us from the stupid people.

[coremelt]

@clairobscur

according to the Jewish calendar the exodus happened 5700 years ago, and a lot of stuff happened before the exodus.

The jewish year 1 is creation, not exodus, which puts the jewish creation date at approx 5700 not so different from the Usher date.

“According to Jewish tradition, the year 1 of the Jewish calendar was the time of “waste and void” referred to in Genesis 1:1. Nothing was yet created, and only a virtual clock started to tick on the first day of that year, heard, as it were, only by the Creator, on the first day of the week (Sunday) the 24th of Elul, (22 August 3760 B.C. in the Gregorian calendar)”

Abdicate - Jewish Calendar, Gergorian Calendar, and Julian Calendar Converter

Apparently the months are counted from Exodus, eg month 1 of hebrew calendar is 1st month of exodus, which is what you are thinking of.

[Lobsang]

@GuanoLad

That’s a hell of a typo in the thread title. Either it’s a misspelled “does” which doesn’t fit the grammar, or it’s a horrendously misspelled “do” with three extra letters. I’m impressed.

I assumed it was meant to be ‘comes’ as per the often heard way of asking the question in verbal communication (“How comes you have dirt on your shoe”)

I am also impressed.

[John_Mace]

Well, the OP is French, so English is not her first language. I assume it should be “come” as in “how come”, which is really an odd idiom when you think about it.

[Peremensoe]

How [did it] come [to be that]…

[septimus]

@clairobscur

Unrelated question that came up too during the conversation : for how long did the Greeks use iron before discovering/ switching to steel?

Here’s a chapter from a nice on-line summary of the history of metallurgy. If I understand correctly there was little if any gap between widespread use of iron and the simplest “recipe” for steel (although improvements to that recipe occurred up to the present).

It’s clear from the Iliad and the Odyssey that Homer lived in the Iron Age but told his stories about the Bronze Age. This helps to date both the composition of the stories and the events related. Sometime around 1100 BC, smiths discovered that “quenching” a forged steel blade by plunging it quickly into liquid dramatically improved its hardness: Homer describes this process in the Odyssey, but he does not seem to understand it fully. It is not clear whether this is Homer’s own lack of understanding, or whether no-one understood just how it worked. What is important, however, is that quenching improves only steel; it has no effect on wrought iron. Homer is describing, therefore, one of the vital steps in producing steel weaponry.

Quench-hardened steel was still a brittle metal, however, and it was even later that smiths discovered that tempering (reheating quenched steel to moderate heat and allowing it to re-cool slowly) cures the brittleness at only a small cost in hardness. This lengthy series of steps could now be used to make swords and other weapons and tools that combined the best of hardness, strength, and flexibility, and from this time on the superiority of iron and steel over bronze was never challenged.

[Enola_Straight]

I was once debating philosophy with a christian coworker of mine, asking how God could create perfect, unbreakable laws of chemistry, physics and mathematics, then break those laws when Creating the earth and heavens in 6/7 days…convenience?

He replies that God created law for man…and God is above any law he makes.

When God made Adam, He didn’t make a fetus or infant, but a full-grown man.

If He can create an adult human in one day, why can’t he make a 14 1/2 billion year old universe in a week?

:dubious:

[Captain_Amazing]

@Enola_Straight

When God made Adam, He didn’t make a fetus or infant, but a full-grown man.

If He can create an adult human in one day, why can’t he make a 14 1/2 billion year old universe in a week?

:dubious:

It’s called the Omphalos hypothesis, laid out by the British naturalist Phillip Henry Gosse. It was his attempt to reconcile religion and science, but it didn’t really work.

[Wallenstein]

@John_Mace

Well, the OP is French, so English is not her first language.

“His” first language, no?

Clair = light (as in Chiaroscuro), rather than a girl’s name.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Kobal2

Ah yes, 1920s style death rays.

I had one of those once, but only for twenty minutes.

Bishop Ussher’s laughably inaccurate timeline is discussed a bit in the play Inherit the Wind, which was inspired by the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial.

[Buck_Godot]

@coremelt

The jewish year 1 is creation, not exodus, which puts the jewish creation date at approx 5700 not so different from the Usher date.
.

Does anyone have any idea how long ago this numbering system was initiated, i.e. what is the earliest historical record that makes use of this year numbering?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@GuanoLad

What annoys me most about this 4004BC nonsense is that it’s based on one person’s solitary dodgy mathematics, that flies in the face of even the most basic incontrovertible evidence, and yet entire swathes of people accept it is… well, gospel truth.

Save us from the stupid people.

There’s even a stupid museum dedicated to this nonsense located (unsurprisingly) in Kentucky not far across the Ohio River from Indiana where I live.

Creation, Science, Bible History, & Dinosaurs

[CurtC]

@Enola_Straight

When God made Adam, He didn’t make a fetus or infant, but a full-grown man.

If He can create an adult human in one day, why can’t he make a 14 1/2 billion year old universe in a week?

Sure, an omnipotent God could do that, but if you accept it that way, he also had to make light from distant galaxies, and light from most of the stars in our own galaxy, already en route to fool us into thinking that it had been traveling for a long time. Also, he had to plant evidence in the Earth, like fossils and unstable isotopes, which would trick us into thinking that everything was really old.

Would you really want to worship a trickster God who would do those things?

And if he could do all that, he could have just as easily created everything last Thursday, including us with our bogus memories already in place. Who’s to say that didn’t happen? When you start invoking a magical trickster God who has an intent to deceive us, there’s no limit, and no way to look at evidence to decide.