I don’t think they truly believe any of the crazy stuff they say. Their basic belief is that nobody should prevent them from doing whatever they want, or make them do anything they don’t want. Everything else is just flights of fancy to make that thing sound more rational and intellectually sophisticated than it is.
That’s a fair assessment, but probably applicable to a lot more people than just the libertarians. I doubt much of the electorate holds rational and consistent ideologies. We’re a nation of drive-thru information gobblers, not political scholars. One party is the “power at any cost” party while the other is the “lost golden age” party, and most voters just pick a few random issues du jour and check a box every four years. It’s hardly an effective formula for meaningful discourse. Sports teams have more substance. Hell, trial by combat would be a better electoral system than the festering dogshit we have now.
Agreed, we need a true multi-party system. And I don’t mean a third party barging in and cannibalizing another party until we’re down to two again. Let us have a spectrum of choices instead of a false binary.
I don’t even want to be around Trump supporters because, TO ME, it says volumes about who and what they are as human beings.
Our parents were right when they taught us that it really matters who our friends are.
There’s a new article in the Atlantic titled something like “Do You Speak Fox?” which shows that people who only watch Fox and have for years, essentially have an entirely different vocabulary and belief system than those who don’t. They literally, and I use that word literally, have a language which does not correspond to normal American. When you speak of some commonly-discussed issue, they do not have any language that communicates with yours.
I can talk with people who disagree with me, I can’t talk with people who can’t hear me.
I agree that the combination is the worst, but I would prefer people who I disagree with more on language, for instance, leftists who want to use words with accusatory overtones in a “new” way when the old more incendiary definitions are still in use, than those who I disagree with more on the facts, such as polite-seeming concern trolls and fake new peddlers.
Leftists are aware that they are trying to replace certain offensive terms with others. I am referring to people who are not conscious that the world they know doesn’t exist except on a television station. Moreover, they have been given tools to make sure they never do find out – they’ve been assured that everything that conflicts with their world view is a deliberate lie by extraordinarily evil people.
Trump is an authoritarian grifter along with a host of other terrible traits. Those facts are in the bank. I’m not having a conversation with anyone who doesn’t acknowledge those basic facts. If someone wants to explain that those facts pale in comparison with the things he is doing to help the country, we can talk but I can’t cross over to an alternate reality where Donald J. Trump is a great man.
I’ll take the charge of close-mindedness in this case. Without apology.
I’m not an authoritarian person, so I really don’t care if people around me have different opinions. I don’t want to live in a bubble, and try to listen to different voices on a variety of things. You can listen to people without taking it too seriously. No purity tests required.
Unfortunately, I find it harder and harder to say anything because it might be construed, extrapolated, believed, or contorted into a representation of my political opinions. People are actively looking for witches, and they’ll easily turn you into one at the slightest provocation when they want something to pummel.
I consider myself a moderate and an independent. I’m also well behaved in social gatherings, having no desire to stir up tensions and animosities, but somehow it is incredibly easy to do these days no matter how hard you try to avoid it. So I pretty much don’t say anything now. Thankfully, Covid has made it easier to avoid social situations.
Sorry to say this to the people on the left, but my experience has been that most of the flak comes from my left-leaning friends and acquaintances. I avoid them these days because they are so hostile to anything that might have proximity to sounding like disagreement, even when you’re not disagreeing. One day you’re their friend, helping each other out and enjoying conversation; the next day they’re giving you the stink eye, often without knowing what you did or said that was so upsetting. Either way, you’re outta the club.
My domestic partner has become like this. We’ve been living together for close to 20 years and he has turned into a tyrant over the last couple of years. It probably doesn’t help that he had to retire early about 8 years ago and spends all day watching MSNBC.
Now I find myself tiptoeing around him because the political hostility is always so close to the surface that it doesn’t take much more than a carelessly worded sentence to trigger him. It doesn’t have to be about politics or culture or whatever else is currently fashionable. It just has to be interpreted that way, or somehow perceived to be indicative of an opposing opinion.
It’s really miserable.
Unfortunately, I’ve seen this in my left-leaning neighbors, co-workers, and even strangers, like the guy who gave me an estimate to trim some tree branches. There we are, just chit-chatting about the tree and this complete stranger launches into a tirade about politics. Why?
I didn’t say anything and was able to divert the conversation in a friendly manner. By the same token, I wasn’t going to base my decision on his political affiliations. People have opinions and that’s fine. I don’t know why they think you need to be clobbered by those opinions, but okay. When it came to the tree, he seemed to know what he was talking about. That’s all that mattered to me, but I was taken aback by the situation. Didn’t see that coming.
I’m sure other people’s experiences are similar, and that often the shoe is on the other foot. It’s just scary that the anger is so palpable and so easily provoked, regardless of the source.
I’m generally very comfortable around people of all political views. However I do not want to be around extremists of any sort.
You describe my life well, but mirrored.
Just getting my daughter’s senior pictures done turned into listening to a QAnon-style right-wing forum about all the craziest conspiracy theories espoused on that side. Which is typical from 99% of all interactions where it is even possible to bring politics up around here.
Out of curiosity, do you live in a super liberal area, where most people would feel that their audience usually would agree with their leftward opinions? Because here, the default assumption is that you are a conservative Republican.
I do live around super liberals, and the area in which I live is mostly liberal. This doesn’t bother me, because I don’t care about your politics. We can just talk about stuff. Most people have something interesting to say.
It’s so bizarre, especially with my partner. I just hang out in my corner every day, working. Then I engage in some projects until bedtime. I sleep on the sofa these days because I need to be punished. I don’t talk much because it’s so easy to say something wrong, apparently.
I’m still not sure what I said that was so offensive, but I’m not sure I care at this point.
Had a bizarre interaction with the neighbors last year. I’ve known these people for decades. Our kids grew up together. I watched their house and took care of their dog when they went on their vacations. We’re not strangers.
One evening, my partner and I were at their house for dinner. My partner and the husband were disparaging people of certain political beliefs. Not unexpected. I tried to participate in the conversation because I was beginning to feel like a potted plant. This was a mistake. Again, I’m not the type to be provocative, and certainly not as a guest, and I don’t remember what kind of casual thing I said, but apparently it was wrong. Very, very wrong.
You should have seen the glares. It was like I kicked the puppy and then poisoned it.
The thing is that it’s the anger that’s just so surprising. You can see it with the clenched teeth and the contemptuous glares. It’s like they are this close to hitting you, or at least throwing something at you.
I’m sure that there are conservatives who do that too. It seems that everyone is cruel to each other these days, and they are too willing to assume the worst of each other. Even in longstanding relationships and with people who should know better. I don’t know what that is supposed to accomplish, and I’m not sure there is much we can do about it.
I found the interaction with the tree guy amusing. Surprising, but amusing. Hopefully, you felt the same way with your interaction with the QAnon wannabes. Doesn’t it remind you of being visited by JWs or Mormons? They’re all friendly and light and then they get down to business. It’s hard not to chuckle sometimes.
I find all of it tickles my funny bone in some way when dealing with strangers. You can have some fun with it.
It’s really different when it’s long-time friends or family, and you wonder if you should practice ducking techniques. Inevitably you’re going to say something wrong - it’s easy - so you need to be prepared.
Ideologues are not fun people.
I’m kind of worried about your domestic situation there. It’s not normal or okay to feel like you have to walk on eggshells to avoid someone’s explosive anger.
The far left is a little scary these days, I’ll give you that. Even though I agree with the left in principle, I disagree so much with the tactics employed that I increasingly have described myself as moderate to distance myself from them.
To answer the question, I am a very socially liberal atheist but I seem to pick up a ton of self-identified Libertarian friends (usually devout Christians.) Weird, huh? One of my closest friends is a Presbyterian minister and we’ve discussed everything from abortion to trans rights. If someone is willing to be thoughtful and intelligent and speak in good faith, I will listen.
The problem is there are a ton of dumbass jerks in the world, with narcissism bordering on the sociopathic, and we have a fundamental disconnect not just in values but in our perceived reality. Where do you start with someone who delights in cruelty? Or who believes ridiculous conspiracy theories? Or who fills their mind with racist bullshit? I don’t understand why people are willing to overlook criminal and authoritarian behavior just to get their way politically. It’s gross. So yeah, I can be civil to Trump supporters but inside I am screaming.
I was just thinking about this today. I’ve got a college friends’ weekend coming up. I’m liberal and everyone knows it, but I’m quiet about it. One person visiting that weekend is super liberal, and super obnoxious and intolerant about it. Others are liberal in various degrees, libertarian, and conservative. I’m already dreading the weekend a little bit, and wondering if I should try to prevent the worst from happening by declaring something like, “No politics!” at the beginning.
Oy, I hope I got this quoting thing right.
You are very thoughtful and kind. Thank you. I’m good at taking care of myself and very independent (not just politically). Just having a day of mourning for lost and damaged relationships due to political divisiveness.
You’re a doll and it’s appreciated.
I always thought it was good to be a little weird. Non-weird people are boring.
I like the Libertarians; they generally have good attitudes about things. It’s good to discuss anything with people, and the libertarian-ish are usually very willing to give you room. It’s not always easy, but you usually come away richer for the experience.
Then there are times when it’s good to keep things light, too. That works. Sometimes it’s great to just share existence, and maybe a cocktail, with another person. Being political all of the time is a heavy weight to bear, as you know.
It’s hard to understand all of the animosities that exist, let alone the ones we’re supposed to nurse on behalf of others. I think it is those of us who are not ideologically owned who will make a difference in the long run. Keep up the good work!
I think, too, ones tolerance for opposing beliefs goes up the more you have in common. A lot of my ideologically different friends are unrepentant geeks like me. The Presbyterian minister I met through a D&D group has a limitless supply of knowledge about film and media - we first bonded over Tarantino films, which is not what you would expect from a pastor. My other friends share my love of fiction writing and we coalesced around the same story editing method. In all cases we are more likely to talk about our common interests than politics.
…Spice Weasel is back!
I believe – I truly believe – that the whole ideological hatred thing can be laid at the feet of the reactionary right wing. The sheer fury I feel at the way this country is quite literally being shredded to pieces in every way you can think of – politically, economically, spiritually, ecologically, morally – by the right, has made me into a a person I hardly recognize, even as naturally crabby as I am. I fantasize about shooting Mitch McConnell between the eyes, and stabbing Trump over and over screaming curses. I have never in my entire life felt this way about political figures, even ones I deeply despised.
I am sorry that you and your housemate (sounds like at this point you are little more) have parted ways, I am sure you are not the only ones. But in reality, wringing your hands and wondering why we simply can’t all be friends is a narrowing option in a time when civil war seems only too possible.
Some of us still maintain the ability to be rational, or at least can still resist the pull to be dragged into the animosities. Maybe we’ll have to choose sides eventually, but I don’t like the idea of joining cults.
It’s a dangerous game we’re playing and I think a civil war is certainly possible. We agree on that.
In light of that, I find myself with a little extra money right now and am seriously considering buying a couple of guns and some ammo. I’ve resisted that so far, but don’t want to be caught unprepared if things go very wrong.
Stockpiling arms is not a rational act, in my opinion. Being angry that the right wing in the USA has become a neo-fascist organization, on the other hand, seems pretty fucking rational to me.