How critical are superheroes to comic books?

Cafe Society
1

I read superhero comics as a kid in the '70’s - X-Men, Spiderman - all the Marvel titles, some DC. As far as I was concerned, a comic wasn’t a comic unless a superhero was involved. Archies, Scrooge McDuck, anything else? - feh.

I stopped reading about age 16. No particular reason.

Have stumbled across a number of comics since then that re-capture the feeling I had as a teenager, but the titles are more tuned to my adult sensibilities. Love Watchmen. Dark Knight. Maus.

Stumbled across Alan Moore’s Top 10 at a friend’s about 3 months ago. Loved it. Got the second TP. Bought League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. V for Vendetta. From Hell. Promethea. Tom Strong. Liked enough of them to be open to the genre again.

Was in Midtown Comics in Times Square, asked the guy at the counter - nerdy and smart - “hey, if I like these books, what should I read?”. Says “Watchmen and Dark Knight were meant to be the death knell of superhero books - the genre was played out. Instead, they re-invigorated the genre with new, darker more adult possibilities, which is why comics are where they are today. But, for the most part, superhero comics ARE played out - all those books did is give artists an opening to create more adult comics that are not particularly that good.” He went on to point out graphic novels like Jimmy Corrigan the World’s Smartest Boy, Ghost World, Eightball and a few others and say “these are where great comics are happening - if you want to get the same buzz of comics that you did as a kid, but as an adult, you should read these.”.

I have read them, and like them - a lot. They definitely take the medium to a literate place. But, to me, they don’t satisfy the superhero buzz that I love when I read Spiderman as a kid.

Whaddya think - is there still a place for superhero comics? As an adult, do you find quality in a superhero comic, or is it just a junk-food fix?

2

Any genre is capable of displaying quality for adults. The important thing to remember is that the majority of creations in any medium (TV, music, etc.) or genre are going to be manufactured not with a mind for quality but for a quick buck. I compare comics (especially super-hero ones) to TV; most of what you see is mindless fluff, but occasionally you’ll get a Roots or whatever that show just what that medium (or genre) is capable of. The biggest guys put out what is most popular (in comics, super-heroes), and lots of it in an attempt to make money, and quality in the comic’s story, while a nice idea, is generally not given a high priority. Since super-heroes are dominated by the big two (and a half if you count Image) who follow the principles I outlined in the last sentence that leaves most of the innovation in the hands of smaller publishers who are aware that they can’t compete in the super-hero market and thus are thrust into other genres; really, don’t you think Oni would be in super-heroes in a heart beat if they thought they could get the sales Marvel has? Dark Horse tried to compete that genre back in the mid-nineties and while they had some success ultimately they were forced back to licensed properties and giving big name creators (e.g. Miller) free reign to make their money.

As for comic books being played out, go and read Marvels, Kingdom Come and/or The Golden Age for books that attempt to refute the Watchmen and DKR’s positions (and seeing as how Miller and Moore have repeatedly returned to super-hero comics I’m not sure they were saying that super-heroes are played out, more like the style of super-heroes that were prominent in the eighties were played out). I actually find the comment that super-hero comics are played out to be kind of silly because super-heroes are simply a genre (sub-genre of fantasy anyways) like any other, and you don’t see people saying that drama or mystery stories are played out. Yeah, they have their peaks and valleys in popularity but they never fully go away, and neither will super-hero stories (although they won’t always resemble the stories from your youth).

3

How critical are superheroes? Very. Without them, Luthor and Doctor Doom would have taken over the world by now.

4

Q: What’s the golden age of superheroes?
A: 12

My thoughts on “Watchmen” and “Dark Knight” being the death knell of superhero comics are that it doesn’t so much mean that superheroes were played out in 1986-87 (when these comics came out) as it means that superheroes are played out when reading these comics meant the most to you; i.e. age 14-18.

Comics of all genres, but particularly superheroes, typically replaced their readership throughout the 20th century every 5 years or so, and so could continue to tell the same kinds of stories over and over, since they had new 9 year olds to impress. In the 70s and 80s, when kids could find nearly every comic they wanted in specialty stores, they hung onto their comic habit a little longer, and so demanded, as they aged, more mature stories starring their favorite old heroes.

I see it this way: Kids believe in Batman. To an 8- or 9-year-old, he’s completely credible. Sure, why WOULDN’T someone dress as a bat and attack criminals? As kids age, certain aspects of adult life start to enter their minds: Does he have a girlfriend? Wouldn’t he be crippled by all the punishment he’s taking? Who fixes the Batmobile? And the kicker, the point at which you go from a pre- to a post-pubescent comic reader: Is something weird going on between Batman and Robin? At that point, you are all but done with superheroes as a genre that actually speaks to you. You may be able to enjoy it, as many do, as juvenile literature, but it’s no longer written for YOU. Watchmen and Dark Knight were written for those people on their way out of superhero comics. As Moore and Miller have both said: “Watchmen was the autopsy, and Dark Knight was the brass band funeral.”

Where do you go from there? Well, usually on to James Bond, Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, and other types of characters that are rather underrepresented in comics.

I think of Watchmen, DKR, Kingdom Come, and all other grim and revisionist superhero comics as treading in the twilight of childhood, sort of like Wendy’s “last night in the nursery” in Peter Pan. Once you read and enjoy those comics, you are kind of done with superheroes. Any return will yield either pointless gruesomeness or simple nostalgia, but rarely a piece of fiction that resonates with you. Kind of sad, but hey, it’s not like 30 years ago; there’s comics for adults now.

As for how important superheroes are (or at least have been) to comics, just think about the iconography. If you had a comic series about James Bond drawn by five different people, would he ever look the same? What if he changed clothes? What if he was in disguise? I mean, he’s just a handsome guy with dark hair! You’d never recognize him one panel to the next without a sign around his neck. At least in movies and on TV you have actors that look the same no matter who writes or directs them, but in comics, you are often limited by the skills of your artist, and so having a mask and a blue and grey costume with a yellow bat-symbol on the chest can be rather helpful.

5

There are plenty of comics out there without superheroes in them (See the entire publishing catalogues of Fantagraphics, Drawn & Quarterly, Rip-Off Press, Neon Lit, Archie, NBM, and any French, Italian or South American publishers you can find). Mind you, all of these publishers’ wares would be pretty hard to find if comics shops didn’t have the X- and Bat-Books to pay the bills–in a business sense, guys who sport capes and wear their underwear over their spandex tights are indispensible to all comics publishers–but you can lead a full and panelologically rewarding life withpoout ever cracking a superhero comic again.

6

British comics are almost completely without super-heroes. Heroes are much better imho.

7

krokodil and Bippy - I hear you: There are a lot of non-hero books out there. I know of them and have read a handful, some of which I like. The point is that I, and mayber others, like those non-hero books for different reasons than I like hero books.

What is challenging is that, as an adult, I get less out of hero books - for the most part, I am struck by their lack of ability to get to me the way they did.

Zander and Asylum are coming at it differently - Zander, you seem to be saying that superheroes are mostly for the young - as we get older, the inconsistencies of a hero’s world become too glaring - so the original cool feeling we had reading those books is simply not available to us as adults. Asylum, you say that any genre can be written at an adult level, just that most hero books that are produced aren’t.

I can see both points. If the glaring discrepencies in a hero’s world aren’t well managed, it falls apart super easy for me. However, reading books like Watchmen, Top 10 and others do feel like they are adult in sensibility and bring the old feelings I used to have reading Spiderman - the approach, plot and characters in Top 10 are very different that Spiderman, but Top 10 feeds that “hero jones” if you will.

My point is that I am glad that non-hero books have some traction in the market - I like them and and can see where they can hit a more adult tone. But, whatever enjoyment I get from them, it is different than the joy which comes from reading a hero book - I just wish there were more hero books written with greater, more adult, plots and characters…

Does that make sense?

8

Sure! Just look for some of the writers who write superhero books along the lines you describe. I’m thinking about Mike Baron for Nexus and Badger, Chuck Dixon for Green Arrow, Garth Ennis for Hitman, and all three of these guys for Punisher (Who would think such an objectionable character could attract so many of the best writers in comics?). Also, Kurt Busiek and Mark Waid have done a lot to make superhero comics for their own sake respectable again. And, while publishers seem to have it in for the guy, Steve Gerber’s work has lost none of its edge in 30 years (If anything, he’s gotten better and honed his craft).

9

You need a definition of “superhero” before you can discuss the field meaningfully. We can agree that Superman is certainly a superhero… but is Batman? After all, he’s just a smart guy with a costume and a buncha widgets. How about the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? Several of them have “superpowers,” but none wear anything like a costume (unless you count Captain Nemo’s weirdo admiral outfit).

I would say that superheroes are not critical to comic books, either in America or anywhere else. The Europeans and Japanese have turned them into literature, and even in America, they’ve managed to make the big time, although largely against the will of the Guardians Of Culture.

It used to be that “superheroes” were simply one genre among many – Romance, Western, Horror, Comedy, Funny Animals, Teen Hijinx, Science Fiction, and even Comic Adaptations Of Classic Novels.

For a variety of reasons, superheroes are now the dominant comic paradigm in America, about the only one left in the mass market. Why? I dunno. I suspect it’s because television and the movies do the other genres pretty well, and comics couldn’t compete. Superheroes, on the other hand, were an utter bitch to do in a non-comedic fashion until recently, and if you wanted superheroes… well, you read comics.

That… and the fact that the price of a comic book is way beyond what it used to be, way out of touch with inflation, for a variety of reasons. When my dad was a kid, he could buy comics for a dime each… and dimes weren’t that hard to come by… and the comics were pretty substantial.

When I was a kid, I could buy comics four for a buck. A buck wasn’t THAT hard to come by, but it did entail some work and/or wheedling on my part. And the comics were somewhat thinner.

When my kid bought comics, the average price tag was $1.95 to $2.50, depending on the publisher… and due to changing styles and advertising, the comics are thinner than ever, and almost always contain continuing story arcs that require you to buy every issue ever printed to keep up with the story. ONE issue is like tuning into five minutes of a random TV show; you don’t know who the characters are, or what’s going on.

…and these days, three bucks for twenty minutes entertainment just isn’t a competitive deal. Not when kids can take in a movie for twice that, or watch TV or play video games for free.