How Dead Do You Have to Be?

[Paul_in_Qatar]

The bad guy had excellent shot grouping. As a professional, I notice this sort of stuff.

[Claverhouse]

Oddly enough, a day ago I flicked through an old episode of Monk on computer and wondered a similar question: an exceptionally beautiful girl was murdered and her body placed in a swimming-pool ( exceptionally beautiful girls are always snuffing it in la-la land, not merely from the ‘woman-in-peril’ trope, but from simple jealousy from ill-favoured writers… ). A gardener wanders by in the morning, and — Madre-de-Dios — sees her floating there.

Theoretically, if someone’s drowned recently and one sees them floating, should one call the police/emergency services not disturbing the crime scene, or try and haul her out and attempt to revive ?

Tangentially, in past centuries when people went missing it was standard to ‘drag the rivers’. I’ve never known what this implied other than supposing men in flat boats stuck poles at the base of the river at random in the chance of hitting a lodged ( or water-logged ) body. Even with a 20’ wide river there would be enormous margin for error. Or maybe they used chains or something ? I dunno how they search rivers now but assume they either use frogmen or people don’t go missing underwater so much as in the old days.

[Darth_Panda]

He’s dead, Jim.

[paperbackwriter]

We were taught to always attempt to revive drowning victims, both because of the impossibility of knowing (quickly on external examination, that is) if the person’s been in the water 5 minutes or 5 hours and because of the Mammalian diving reflex. That is why the protocol posted by outlierrn has a specific exception for cold-water drowning. Not that the average L.A. swimming pool would be cold enough, but it’s a kind of, “you never know until you know,” situation. Better to attempt revival than not.

[phouka]

I remember an episode of ER (maybe even the premier) where one of the doctors said of a drowning victim, “you’re not dead until you’re warm and dead.”

[simster]

@phouka

I remember an episode of ER (maybe even the premier) where one of the doctors said of a drowning victim, “you’re not dead until you’re warm and dead.”

I was going to post this same quote - but from a different show - NCIS - said by Ducky.

[outlierrn]

@irishgirl

It’s part of the reasons one of my former bosses referred to our cardiac ambulance (which has a doctor in it) as the “mobile death certification unit”. The idea of the ambulance was so that heart attacks could be lysed in their homes, but 9 times out of 10 by the time you got there CPR was in progress and you were being called to say it could stop.

I’m curious irishgirl, how much lysing do you do in the field? It’s not the preferred treatment even in hospital here, we’re far more likely to put pts in the cath lab.

[Gbro]

@Claverhouse

Tangentially, in past centuries when people went missing it was standard to ‘drag the rivers’. I’ve never known what this implied other than supposing men in flat boats stuck poles at the base of the river at random in the chance of hitting a lodged ( or water-logged ) body. Even with a 20’ wide river there would be enormous margin for error. Or maybe they used chains or something ? I dunno how they search rivers now but assume they either use frogmen or people don’t go missing underwater so much as in the old days.

Well I did a lot of body recovery during my years in the fire service and diving was the most common and productive method we used.
Most of the diving is done by a boat towing 2 or more divers in a predetermined search pattern. We have used tow boards but i liked the single rope and would go through the water kind of like superman.:o
However there are times when diving isn’t practical and probing(like you implied in your imaginative post, but a dragging operation is much different.
This video is all inclusive.

[Loach]

In my jurisdiction paramedics come out and make the declaration. Officially it is a doctor but the doc is on the phone. We start CPR unless it is obvious that they are dead.

[Mosier]

@paperbackwriter

Back when I was a certified EMT in Massachusetts, there were only a few criteria for “obviously dead”:
[ul][li]Rigor Mortis[]Postmortem Lividity(a/k/a Livor mortis, the settling of red blood cells to the lowest parts of the body indicating heart function has long since ceased)[]Decomposition (of the body in general, not things like gangrene or necrotizing fasciitis)[*]Injury Incompatible with Life (e.g., decapitation or transverse bisection, not mere wounds, no matter how horrible)[/ul][/li]
That may have changed since then, and differ between MA and DC, but those were the standards and I believe they’re fairly common. We weren’t allowed to declare some-one to be dead, just assess that CPR and ALS measures were wasted. I think some jurisdictions allow some first responders to actually declare death, but don’t quote me on that.

So, if The West Wing had been Beacon Hill instead, the scene would have been wrong.

This is pretty much the national standard for pre-hospital death determination, with very few local exceptions.

[paperbackwriter]

@Mosier

This is pretty much the national standard for pre-hospital death determination, with very few local exceptions.

That’s basically what I remember, but its been a while, so I didn’t want to overstate things.

Thanks for the backup.