How Did People Use DDT In The Home?

[mozchron]

@Markxxx

I basically read that DDT has such a bad rep that no one is willing to touch it. In otherwords even if you could show DDT still worked, the public outcry wouldn’t allow it to be used ever.

Eh, I don’t know if I buy that. It was very easy for the western public to want to ban DDT to “save the birds” when it was mostly going to effect “savages”* in third-world countries. If people were dropping of malaria at the same rate in the states, I don’t think DDT would have ever been banned.

I think if DDT would be effective, people would be lobbying their politicians for a re-instatement of its use, and damn the birds.

I wish it was effective, since I can get it easily

*sarcasm, for the irony-impaired.

[NOLA_Cajun]

I’ve heard many times since the banning of DDT that if it were still in use it could eradicate mosquitos and therfore malaria. Have mosquitos also developed this resistance to it or is it still true that it would be beneficlial? Seems to me a good nough reason to bring it back at least in those parts of the world where malaria is still a huge problem?

[Simplicio]

@mozchron

@Markxxx

I basically read that DDT has such a bad rep that no one is willing to touch it. In otherwords even if you could show DDT still worked, the public outcry wouldn’t allow it to be used ever.

Eh, I don’t know if I buy that. It was very easy for the western public to want to ban DDT to “save the birds” when it was mostly going to effect “savages”* in third-world countries. If people were dropping of malaria at the same rate in the states, I don’t think DDT would have ever been banned.

I think if DDT would be effective, people would be lobbying their politicians for a re-instatement of its use, and damn the birds.

I wish it was effective, since I can get it easily

*sarcasm, for the irony-impaired.

DDT use for anti-malarial campaigns was never banned was it? The wikipedia article above says that “vector control” was allowed and continued after the various bans were passed in the 70’s.

[Markxxx]

DDT is still used in Africa on a very limited basis. There was a problem in Uganda as it was approved for mosquito use but it wasn’t being used correctly. They were using it on everything instead of just mosquitos

The reason DDT isn’t used more is some mosquitos are DDT resitant. Those in Southern India and Sri Lanka have been shown to be resistant. But not all mosquitos have developed the resistance yet.

In fact DDT is still manufactured in the USA so someone is using it. In the USA it can be used in “public health emergencies” (Source: NIH). This is why I say that if bed bugs could transmit an actual disease, instead of just giving you welts and hives, you’d then have people looking at DDT.

[dracoi]

@Simplicio

DDT use for anti-malarial campaigns was never banned was it? The wikipedia article above says that “vector control” was allowed and continued after the various bans were passed in the 70’s.

I don’t have a cite, but I remember reading a report that malaria rates jumped as a result of bans on DDT. Because the jump was unacceptable, they went back to using DDT.

[Sailboat]

@Sailboat

@Blake

DDT was never a big danger, or even a small threat, to humans even if used incorrectly and in a reckless and irresponsible manner.

That’s not what it says here.

@Blake

@Sailboat

That’s not what it says here.

That is exactly what it says there. Did you read it?

Oh for God’s sake, I know you hate to be contradicted, Blake, but really?

What it says there:

DDT is classified as “moderately toxic” by the United States National Toxicology Program (NTP)[42] and “moderately hazardous” by the World Health Organization (WHO)

This endocrine disrupting activity has been observed in mice and rat toxicological studies, and available epidemiological evidence indicates that these effects may be occurring in humans as a result of DDT exposure.

DDT is suspected to cause cancer. The NTP classifies it as “reasonably anticipated” the EPA classifies DDT, DDE, and DDD as class B2 “probables” and the International Agency for Research on Cancer classifies DDT as a “possible” human carcinogen.

Occupational exposure in agriculture and malaria control has been linked to neurological problems (i.e. Parkinsons)[68] and asthma.[69]

a study published in 2007 strongly associated early exposure (the p,p-isomer) and breast cancer later in life. Unlike previous studies, this prospective cohort study collected blood samples from young mothers in the 1960s while DDT was still in use, and their breast cancer status was then monitored over the years. In addition to suggesting that the p,p-isomer is the more significant risk factor, the study also suggests that the timing of exposure is critical. For the subset of women born more than 14 years before agricultural use, there was no association between DDT and breast cancer. However, for younger women—exposed earlier in life—the third who were exposed most to p, p-DDT had a fivefold increase in breast cancer incidence over the least exposed third, after correcting for the protective effect of o,p-DDT.[41][76][77] These results are supported by animal studies.[32]

Organochlorine compounds, generally, and DDT and DDE, specifically, have been linked to diabetes

DDT may be directly genotoxic,[41] but may also induce enzymes to produce other genotoxic intermediates and DNA adducts.

Does that sound like “never…even a small threat to humans even if used incorrectly” to anyone?

Anyone? Bueller?

[mozchron]

@Simplicio

DDT use for anti-malarial campaigns was never banned was it? The wikipedia article above says that “vector control” was allowed and continued after the various bans were passed in the 70’s.

Correct, DDT was not banned for, and can still be used for vector control. The problem is that if DDT is available for mosquitoes, people will use it for agriculture. So it is still used, but not nearly as widely as it should be.

[Morgenstern]

@FatBaldGuy

When I was a kid, my dad was in the Air Force and sometimes we lived in base housing. I remember during the summer once or twice a month they would drive around in a truck spraying DDT all over the neightorhood. Not sure how it was handled in the “civilian world”.

I remember that as well, albeit a USMC base. I would join all the neighborhood kids and run in the fog created by the truck as it sprayed the DDT. I can’t imagine that being allowed today.

[mozchron]

@Markxxx

In fact DDT is still manufactured in the USA so someone is using it. In the USA it can be used in “public health emergencies” (Source: NIH). This is why I say that if bed bugs could transmit an actual disease, instead of just giving you welts and hives, you’d then have people looking at DDT.

Yep. The fact that bedbugs don’t transmit pathogens has made it very difficult to get Federal NIH funding to study them. This is the main reason we stopped working on them - our grants kept getting shot down because “bedbugs are a nuisance pest, not a disease vector”. We had some industry money potentially lined up, but the industry grants were tiny compared to NIH and did not pay overhead to the University, so I was told (i.e. highly encouraged) to drop it.

[Snnipe_70E]

I found this interesting.

My experience with DDT would indicat it was not harmless.
A little back ground. I grew up on a small dairy farm. The dairy farmers would get the cull green vegies from the packing plants. When they started spraying with DDT my dad stop using the culls as food for the cows. Some of the other farmers did not. I remember them having cows that would stumble around and fall often. It was like they were blind and had lost muscle control. Most of the effected cows had to be put down. The common thing with the farmers who lost cows was the food being feed to them was sprayed with DDT. We servived by running fewer cows and more hay and grain.

As to how was the DDT applied the crops were sprayed with DDT by airplanes.

[Blake]

@Sailboat

What it says there:

You yourself have quoted the wiki page which is fll of “may bes” and “possible associations” and “implicated in”. And that’s all there is. No evidence at all, just implications and possible associations. And thats; withouit mentioning the methodologiucal problems with all those studies.

@Snnipe_70E

When they started spraying with DDT …

Stop right there.

How do you know it was DDT? Did you visit the farms when the pesticide was being applied and read the labels? Or do you, like many people, assume that all insecticides are DDT?

Seeing that DDT was sprayed directly onto dairy cows and their feed for decades with not a single report of any adverse effects, it would be astounding if indirect application to some feed would produce the effects you describe.

[matt]

@mozchron

To late to edit. OP’s are not the only toxic insecticides.

Here is a recent case where someone possibly killed themselves by permethrin poisoning trying to self-treat a bedbug infestation.

“Possibly” is really pushing it, reading that. Additionally, several of the world’s militaries (including the USA) send their troops out in permethrin-impregnated clothing and parents use permethrin lotions to remove head lice from their children. Unless you’re a bug (or a cat, bizarrely) it’s very hard to hurt yourself with it.

[Snnipe_70E]

@Blake

@Sailboat

What it says there:

You yourself have quoted the wiki page which is fll of “may bes” and “possible associations” and “implicated in”. And that’s all there is. No evidence at all, just implications and possible associations. And thats; withouit mentioning the methodologiucal problems with all those studies.

@Snnipe_70E

When they started spraying with DDT …

Stop right there.

How do you know it was DDT? Did you visit the farms when the pesticide was being applied and read the labels? Or do you, like many people, assume that all insecticides are DDT?

Seeing that DDT was sprayed directly onto dairy cows and their feed for decades with not a single report of any adverse effects, it would be astounding if indirect application to some feed would produce the effects you describe.

It was not on the dairy farms that it was sprayed. It was on the lettuce fields about three miles away from our dairy farm. You are right I did assume. It had to do with the warnings we recieved not to feed cull lettuce to our cows because according to the state the lettuce fields in our area had been sprayed with DDT.

No I did not Climb on to the airplanes to test or see what they were using. But I did assume it was DDT being put into the planes. After all the newspaper articles about how wonderful it was the the crop dusters switched to using DDT on the crops.

Then there was the fact that when the state tested our milk they found traces of DDT in the milk. And thretened to knock us over if it did not improve. My dad never allowed DDT on the property. We assumed it traveled in the air from the fields that were being sprayed.

So I guess I did make a lot of assumesions. The insecticides we used was 2-4-D. We did not use malethyon. So you are now assuming that I think there is only DDT.

I would also doubt that DDT was used directly on dairy cows, or on the fields of dairy cows. From what I remember that would be the wronginsecticides. I think you are assuming it was used everywhere.

[Snnipe_70E]

Though I think DDT can be dangerous. I think there are times when it should be used. I may be wrong but we have a lot of trees dieing in the forests across the country. Which is worse the side effects of using it in the forest or having no forest?

[Blake]

@Snnipe_70E

It was not on the dairy farms that it was sprayed. It was on the lettuce fields about three miles away from our dairy farm.

That’s the point. It *was *sprayed directly onto cattle and cattle feed in many locations, with no ill effects. Yet in your location for some reason merely spraying onto a small portion of the feed caused severe effects. That seems unlikely

It had to do with the warnings we recieved not to feed cull lettuce to our cows because according to the state the lettuce fields in our area had been sprayed with DDT.

Let’s assume that this is true, and that your childhood memories from 30+ years ago of a verbal warning to your father are correct. Why do you assume that the only pesticide being used on the lettuce was DDT, and that you can therefore attribute all symptoms to DDT poisoning?

Then ask yourself, if the amount of DDT on the lettuce was so high that it was affecting a huge ruminant like a cow, why was it having no effect on the infants that were also eating the lettuce? Ruminants are notoriously difficult to poison orally, after all.

No I did not Climb on to the airplanes to test or see what they were using. But I did assume it was DDT being put into the planes. After all the newspaper articles about how wonderful it was the the crop dusters switched to using DDT on the crops.

Once agian, we have to ask why this is evidence that no othe rpecticide at all was being used.

Then there was the fact that when the state tested our milk they found traces of DDT in the milk. And thretened to knock us over if it did not improve. My dad never allowed DDT on the property. We assumed it traveled in the air from the fields that were being sprayed.

So you never fed material A to the cattle, and yet traces of DDT were found in your milk. How is this evidence that material A contains or does not contain DDT? Given the residence time of DDT in soil and water, and given the ubiquitous use in almost all agricuture for many years, and assumeing that you entire catchment wasn’t devoted to growing nothing but lettuce, I can’t quite see how this tells us anything at all. At best it tell sus that bla,ming any pesticide exposure on material A is without basis.

It also raises a interesting quetsion. The state tested your milk and found high enough levels of DDT for the milk to be borderline rejected. And the farm next door had levels of DDT in the animal’s blood so high that the animals showed symptoms of poisoning. And yet the state never rejected milk from those farms? If the state did rejct that mnilk it should be fairly easy to find evidence of it if you can tell us where this occured and when.

So I guess I did make a lot of assumesions. The insecticides we used was 2-4-D.

Umm, 2,4-d is a herbicide. It is quite harmless to insects.

We did not use malethyon. So you are now assuming that I think there is only DDT.

What you used is irrelevant, since you blamed the symptoms on the pesticide used on lettuce farms, not on your farm. And I’m not assuming you think it is only DDT, you stated that explicitely: “The common thing with the farmers who lost cows was the food being feed to them was sprayed with DDT”. Any other pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers, food source, pathogens or water source could also have been common too, couldn’t it?

[Snnipe_70E]

@Blake

@Snnipe_70E

It was not on the dairy farms that it was sprayed. It was on the lettuce fields about three miles away from our dairy farm.

That’s the point. It *was *sprayed directly onto cattle and cattle feed in many locations, with no ill effects. Yet in your location for some reason merely spraying onto a small portion of the feed caused severe effects. That seems unlikely

Let’s assume that this is true, and that your childhood memories from 30+ years ago of a verbal warning to your father are correct. Why do you assume that the only pesticide being used on the lettuce was DDT, and that you can therefore attribute all symptoms to DDT poisoning?

Then ask yourself, if the amount of DDT on the lettuce was so high that it was affecting a huge ruminant like a cow, why was it having no effect on the infants that were also eating the lettuce? Ruminants are notoriously difficult to poison orally, after all.

Once agian, we have to ask why this is evidence that no othe rpecticide at all was being used.

So you never fed material A to the cattle, and yet traces of DDT were found in your milk. How is this evidence that material A contains or does not contain DDT? Given the residence time of DDT in soil and water, and given the ubiquitous use in almost all agricuture for many years, and assumeing that you entire catchment wasn’t devoted to growing nothing but lettuce, I can’t quite see how this tells us anything at all. At best it tell sus that bla,ming any pesticide exposure on material A is without basis.

It also raises a interesting quetsion. The state tested your milk and found high enough levels of DDT for the milk to be borderline rejected. And the farm next door had levels of DDT in the animal’s blood so high that the animals showed symptoms of poisoning. And yet the state never rejected milk from those farms? If the state did rejct that mnilk it should be fairly easy to find evidence of it if you can tell us where this occured and when.

Umm, 2,4-d is a herbicide. It is quite harmless to insects.

We did not use malethyon. So you are now assuming that I think there is only DDT.

What you used is irrelevant, since you blamed the symptoms on the pesticide used on lettuce farms, not on your farm. And I’m not assuming you think it is only DDT, you stated that explicitely: “The common thing with the farmers who lost cows was the food being feed to them was sprayed with DDT”. Any other pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers, food source, pathogens or water source could also have been common too, couldn’t it?

Do not know why it was not harmful to the cows in your area. I baised the assumption that the neighbors cows got sick because the cows only got sick after the crop dusters switched to DDT, and the vet called it DDT poinioning. Maybe the vet did not know what he was talking about.

My dad did not verbal wornings, but several letters.

Lettuce shipped for human consumption was washed several ways and times before being shipped. Cull lettuce only had one bath and the water was used over and over.

I assume only DDT was used because of the articles about how much the growers were saving by only having one pesticide to spray and not make blends or more than one spraying.

The state did not knock us over because the levels of DDT were below the limit. But several of the neighbors who were feeding cull lettuce were knocked over and their milk was rejected. It ended up putting them out of the shipping milk business. I think the level the state would was 1.5 PPM, our level was in the range of 0.15 PPM oru neighbors above 1.5 PPM. (I remember these levels because there is another story in the state testing but that is another story about bad government).

The location would be North Montery county. I think the time would have been around 1960 +_ 4 years.

A lot of the things about DDT I remember because of my dad. His research convinced him that he did not want on the property. That would have been information from the departments of ag state and federal. And other reading of the time, sorry I can not give you exactly where he got it. He was strongly against its use.

[Snnipe_70E]

[quote=“Blake, post:35, topic:553083”]

[QUOTE=
What you used is irrelevant, since you blamed the symptoms on the pesticide used on lettuce farms, not on your farm. And I’m not assuming you think it is only DDT, you stated that explicitely: “The common thing with the farmers who lost cows was the food being feed to them was sprayed with DDT”. Any other pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers, food source, pathogens or water source could also have been common too, couldn’t it?[/QUOTE]

How do you know it was DDT? Did you visit the farms when the pesticide was being applied and read the labels? Or do you, like many people, assume that all insecticides are DDT?
What we used is relevant because of your question about my assuming that all insecticides are DDT. The point I was trying to make is that I know there are other insecticides. And If I thought DDT was the only insecticide out there then what have we been using since it was band all those years ago?

Water sources were not common. Same feed stores, probale same other pesticides, no fertilisers.

[Sailboat]

@Blake

@Sailboat

What it says there:

You yourself have quoted the wiki page which is fll of “may bes” and “possible associations” and “implicated in”. And that’s all there is. No evidence at all, just implications and possible associations. And thats; withouit mentioning the methodologiucal problems with all those studies.

This isn’t a maybe:

DDT is classified as “moderately toxic” by the United States National Toxicology Program (NTP)[42] and “moderately hazardous” by the World Health Organization (WHO)

It actually is so classified.

My point was merely that if toxicology experts classify something as toxic to humans, your claim that it’s never a threat is a stretch. I don’t know what your agenda is – maybe you know all these guys personally or something – but they have clearly legally established it as a threat to human health, and you seem determined to discount that.