Cultural dynamics are always a continuum, and you can certainly find individuals at various points along the continuum. You can find individual Japanese who are far more individualistic than the Japanese cultural norm, and individual Americans who are far more collectivistic than the American cultural norm. But the general attitude in Japan is that you (the person) are part of a family, a group, a nation; while the general attitude in America is that you are primarily responsible for yourself. This expresses itself in various ways. My favorite is baseball, where the play that brings the American audience to its feet cheering is the grandslam homerun. The play that brings the Japanese audience ditto is the sacrifice bunt, where one player sacrifices himself for the good of the team.
I’m far from an expert on Japan, but it seems to me that many of the perceived societal differences could in large part be a result of the relative population density.
With an area slightly smaller than California, Japan has a population of 128 million, while Cali’s is 37 million. As per Wikipedia, Japan’s population density is 873.1/square mile, while Cali’s is 234.4/square mile.
In that light, it certainly makes collectivist tendencies seem like a matter of necessity.
This is going to sound really loaded but . . .
Does anyone think that Japanese (and maybe Asian in general) women are sort of in a state of suspended adolescence? In general, the culture seems to be very heavy on “cute” and there seems to be a heavy emphasis on youth in women being sexual (not that we don’t have that in the West, but it seems like it’s greater in Asian countries).
And the whole, "turn amongst yourself and giggle if you think a guy is flirting with you . . . " I mean, I expect that with 12 y.o. girls in the states, but any older and you expect women to act, well, like grown-ups in their interactions with men.
It seems like in general in Japan there seems to be more of an emphasis on youthfulness and naivete being attractive in women, as opposed to maturity and competence. Again, we have that division in the West too, but it seems much more tilted to the former in Japan. At least from what I can tell.
Turn up your imagination then!
Read about IBM, starting employee meetings with Ever Onward, the IBM company rally song. Or the IBM anthem – “Hail to the IBM” – hiring Eugene Ormandy & the Philadelphia Symphony Orchestra to play that when it was introduced. In 1939, not so very long ago. (See here.)
And IBM was hardly the only American company to do this kind of stuff.
No, what you’re describing is out of otaku fantasies and hentai anime. No significant number of Japanese women subscribe to that perspective. You can find it if you really want to, but it’s likely that the women are being paid to act that way.
so it was anime characters who giggled and turned away when BigT made eye contact?
I can’t find the cite, but IIRC, 90% of population of California lives within 50 miles of the coast. So the population density is much higher as you get closer to the coast. OTOH , I am ignorant of what kind of heterogeneous kinks there are in Japan’s population .
Giggling and turning away is a mighty long haul from what you described.
I’ve spent a lot of time in Japan. There are lots of posters here, many of whom I know, who have lived there for many years. I’m reasonably confident of my statements.
I said that from what I can tell, there seems to be a much bigger emphasis in Japan for a woman’s sexuality to be linked to naivete and youthfulness, and I gave giggling and turning away when you think someone is flirting with you as an example of that.
No, most people just don’t know what Fascism means.
It’s not particularly a slam. Japan is, obviously, a relatively successful and modern nation.
This is actually a weird spot. What Japanese people do NOT object to is cutesy animated creatures on everything, to exaggerate a tad, in Japan, getting Snoopy cuddling Garfield on your debit card is the default image, in America the default is blank. Some theories I’ve heard about this extend to a form of “release,” everything else in Japanese society is so built around obligations, saving face, and rote structure that the cutesy images and such are a way to let off steam while still adhering to the social hierarchy.
However, Japanese people DO tend to object to anime. If you are above a certain age and watch anime, you will be called many names, few of them pleasant. This derives from several stereotypes, most of my sources pointed to the hangup originating from [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Miyazaki]this guy/. Talking about the newest Naruto or Dragonball or your anime collection in Japan is considered approximately as weird as talking about the newest Ben 10 or your Misadventures of Flapjack DVD collection here, in fact, it may be more taboo. Now, some animated features meant for older people (seinen anime like Death Note) fall less into this trap, from what I understand, but you can’t just say that in Japan animation is accepted and universal.
There is a bit of an odd spot, of course: things like the newest Miyazaki film are fine, it just like how an adult mentioning the newest Disney flick is acceptable. Also, from what I gather, reading popular manga, no matter the intended age range (except perhaps kodomo/young child) is generally accepted. I’ve never been able to find a good explanation of why manga are okay but anime aren’t, but that’s what I understand.
To give an idea, saving face in Japan is less “killing oneself in disgrace” and more “you can’t fire me, I quit!” A professor I had once regaled us with a story of a company he worked at in Japan, in which an employee was under-performing, heavily, and instead of firing him they gave him increasingly obvious hints that he needs to quit, because then the company wouldn’t have the disgrace of having to fire an employee, and the employee didn’t need to say he was fired. There’s also a lot of concealing the true meaning behind words (and a lot of understatement), such as “that’s a bit difficult…” meaning more along the lines of “yeah, that thing you asked me to do? Completely, inconceivably impossible.”
Related to saving face is the concept of honne and tatemae, books could be written about those concepts, but the closest I can get to a western understanding without making this post too long is that it mirrors a “white lie” to a degree, but even more culturally ingrained. Essentially there’s something you know is the truth but then there’s what the facade of society expects to be the truth. I’ve encountered this as a possible explanation for why over 80% of people in Japan say they’re Shinto and/or Buddhist but also say that their religious belief is mushukyo (religion has no meaning to them). One explanation is that mushukyo has a slightly different meaning than “irreligious” does, but another is honne vs tatemae. Society has an EXPECTATION (tatemae) that modern Japan is secular, so they say they’re irreligious, but the truth of the matter is that with all of the festivals people attend, the butsudan (altars) in their house they may be more religious than they let on (their honne). Of course, you can make up an explanation for it being the reverse (society expects you to attend festivals and have a butsudan, but you secretly don’t give a crap, hence mushukyo).
Ah. I’m from the (upper) South, so I’m used to doing that to pretty much everyone. I never really considered it flirting, but that makes sense.
As mentioned above, even if I was intentionally flirting, I’m just not used to that reaction in women over a certain age, but it did match the reaction I’ve seen in anime (which I’d assumed was done because anime is kiddie stuff in Japan). It makes sense that, while riddled with exaggerations and tropes, there would be some truth in there, even if just because the animation is created by the people in the Japanese culture.
Anyways, I’m glad to know it’s not verboten, as trying to avoid making eye contact was making me feel and probably act awkwardly. One of my favorite things to do it to try to make newcomers feel more welcome.
This is changing. In fact, many younger Japanese are unable to secure “regular status” seishain which provides the famous life-time status and then must as temp employees to the same companies which used to hire all regular status employees. Receptionist, office admins, (and most “female” jobs) and IT are particularly hit hard.
It does make sense when you’ve forgotten to change out of your pajamas, though. 
Yes, I know what Fascism means. OK, going back to your
I made a joke of it, but this is simply BS. I’m surprised, because you lived her, and speak Japanese, but to equate modern Japan to pre-WWII Germany is absurd. A generally accepted definition of fascism
Let’s play a game here. I’ll find media headlines and you show how they work for the Glory Of The Nation.
菅ワガママ視察で原発危機！もうウンザリ…閣僚・官僚は仙谷詣で (Kan’s Selfish Observation (made or increased) the Reactor Crisis. (We are) Fed UP!) about the prime minister’s helicopter visit to the site, which TEPCO is trying to blame for their fuck ups.
Yes, Japan is insular to a high degree, and the press tends to be lapdogs, but nothing holds back the daily and weekly tabloids.
I’ve done business with pretty much all the big electronic companies in Japan. Matsushita, Sony, JVC, Toshiba, you name them, as well as mom and pop shops, and I never get a Glory to Japan. People are in business for business. There is far more tolerance for individualism than what your wing nut source is claiming.
As for countries claiming to be the best in the world, you don’t have to look very far to find Americans who feel exactly this.
Your professor got this wrong. What happened was fairly common, companies will try to get people to quit, but it’s not because of disgrace, it’s because of the Japanese laws which pretty much prohibit firing people. You really have to jump through tremendous hoops to fire people, even when the employee is clearly incompetent.
At a previous company, I had a senior(!) tech who should never have been hired and was insanely lacking in any redeeming value to the company. Here’s just one of many examples of his fuck ups. The company imported products from the States, and we had orders for three systems, each several hundred thousand dollars. After the systems came in, the US manufacturer announced some sort of change in parts, and I asked the tech to check the systems to make sure they were fine. He reported that he had, and they were OK. Later when we went to deliver the systems, it was discovered that the parts were old. I called the tech in for an explanation and his excuse was that he thought they would be OK, so he didn’t actually check, but it was his boss’s fault for believing him.
I went to the VP to have his sorry ass out of the company, and found out we couldn’t fire him. Legally, it was our fault for hiring an incompetent lying son of bitch. (Can you tell I’m still pissed?), but we could hint about him leaving, document every little thing and try to make his life miserable.
So when we moved office, I didn’t assign him a desk, chair or computer, saying they were for “useful” employees and the empty ones were for ones who we could hire if only the worthless people would only leave. Of course, he knew he would never get another job, so he ignored my hints. I finally got him transferred to the warehouse and three months of lifting boxes finally had enough. All of us in management would have loved to deep six him (and all the rest were Japanese) but we had the legal constraints which didn’t permit it.
This does show how the reality of Japan is not as pretty as what Western impressions are.
Yes, but you quickly get used to that.
My vote would be with mushukyo as having a different connotation in Japan than in the West, especially America. I’m running out of time tonight, and religion is a lot to tackle so I’ll have to be really brief.
There are Japanese who regularly attend religious services or are active in what are often called “new religions.” They are clearly in the minority, but it does show there are religious people.
Shinto isn’t the really a religion per se. It was adapted by the government and armed forces starting with the Meiji Restoration (of the emperor) to give an political excuse for their brand of oligarchy.
Important festivals, such as New Years are held at Shinto shrines, but 99% of the people who go are their for cultural reasons, not spiritual ones. Almost everyone will give a nominal donation (often five yen about 4 cents, and up to a dollar for most people) and will say a prayer, which is more like making a birthday wish before blowing out the candles.
Most everyone has Buddhist funerals, but only a small minority ever attend religious instruction or seriously practice mediation.
For what it’s worth, it’s popular to have a “Christian” wedding complete with a faux priest.
I didn’t say that ALL forms of anime were widely accepted by and universal to all Japanese audiences. As you pointed out, there are genres that appeal much more to kids than to adults and vice-versa. But I don’t think that the medium of animation itself is as pigeon-holed into the stereotype of “just for kids” in Japan as it is in, say, the U.S.
In particular, there seems to be a lot of anime aimed at teenage/young adult audiences (this would be where stuff like Dragonball and maybe even some grittier anime like Cowboy Bebop would fit in). It might not be acceptable in Japan for an older adult to admit watching stuff like that, but in the States the cut-off age for being able to watch “cartoons” and still be considered to be “cool” seems to stand somewhere in the 10-12 year old range, rather than early 20s (I find it hard to believe that Cowboy Bebop or Samurai Champloo were aimed at young teens or kids). There’s also a fair amount of “soap opera” anime that appears to be aimed at teenage females - this niche is filled by live-action shows in the States. I can’t imagine there being a cartoon version of *Degrassi *or High School Musical being made over here.
Once you get away from television serials and into feature films, the animated efforts get even more ambitious: psychological thrillers (Perfect Blue), somber war stories (Grave of the Fireflies), period fantasies (Princess Mononoke), etc. It might not be the Japanese film industry standard to say, “hey, let’s make an anime out of this! Everyone will love it!” I’m just saying that the Japanese seem to be more willing to give animation a shot at making movies like these than their counterparts in the States and elsewhere.
I don’t really think this is true. What about Family Guy? American Dad? King of the Hill? All the stuff on Cartoon Network? Adult Swim? Not to mention that the classics like Looney Tunes still have pretty strong followings among adults.
The three comedy shows that you mentioned are part of an interesting exception to Western animation conventions, and I’d argue that if it wasn’t for The Simpsons, none of them would have existed in the first place. IIRC back when The Simpsons debuted in the late 1980s, there were many people questioning whether or not an animated show aimed primarily at adults would succeed on primetime network TV. Obviously, The Simpsons did but I think that the comedy/satire nature of the show was the key to its success.
It seems as if Western adult audiences will accept animation as a medium for comedy (because of the example set even earlier with Looney Tunes, etc.), while other animation genres have had less success. There was a slate of action animation films released by American studios in the late '90s/early 2000s (Atlantis, Titan A.E., Treasure Planet) that weren’t very successful. Adult Swim has had a few action animation offerings, but many if not most of them are either anime imports or at least anime-inspired (is Afro Samurai still on?). And drama doesn’t seem to be a genre that too many Western animators are yet willing to try out to any significant degree.
It has been attempted more in England than America, although even there, it is not really mainstream. There were some American mavericks like Ralph Bakshi who tried to use the medium for non-comedic films (American Pop) but it was never a huge success. I think this is too bad, because the potential is there.
BigT was referring to college students. I work in academia and believe me, juvenile behavior is hardly unknown amongst American college students.
Jragon’s comments are a lot closer to what I saw in Japan than what you’ve been saying. I’d heard for years in the US that in Japan animation isn’t just for kids, there’s no stigma about adults watching animation, etc., but what I heard from actual Japanese people in Japan was pretty much the opposite. In Japan most mainstream animation is geared at either children or a family audience. Anything else seems to be generally regarded as made for pathetic losers and/or real sickos.
All I can say is that according to the middle school students I taught in Japan, animated shows were for children. I taught 14 year old girls who had Sailor Moon characters on their keychains, but when I asked about them they said they had really liked Sailor Moon…when they were little. I also had Japanese friends in college who thought it was HILARIOUS that American college students openly watched anime that was considered fare for elementary school children or even preschoolers (Pokemon) in Japan.
This is not to say that there is no such thing as anime aimed at teenagers and young adults, but the one time the subject came up at work my coworker dismissed such programs as made for “14 year old boys who don’t have girlfriends…and will never have girlfriends.”
I can’t really imagine college students in America looking at each other and giggling if they thought someone was flirting. I can imagine them flirting back or ignoring the guy if they weren’t into it but giggling just seems like a whole different kind of juvenile.
That is interesting. Doesn’t Sailor Moon have some fairly adult themes? Like two of the characters involved in a same sex relationship (which was changed for the American dub)? And…you know, Serena looking…ah, naked, when she transforms?
It doesn’t seem beyond plausibility to me that an American college student might turn to a friend and laugh because she thinks a guy is flirting with her.
If the issue is laughing vs. giggling, I don’t think one can really draw a hard line between the two. Nervous laughter tends to fall more on the giggling end of the spectrum, and a young woman in a foreign country who isn’t sure if a foreign man is trying to pick her up certainly might feel a bit nervous or embarrassed. The way many Japanese women normally laugh may also seem like giggling to Americans because it’s still considered somewhat crass for Japanese women to laugh without covering their mouths. (I have definitely seen Japanese women violate this “rule”, though.)
I’ve never seen Sailor Moon so I couldn’t tell you what sort of themes are included in the series. All I can say is that 14 year old Japanese girls I knew considered it a show for younger girls and not something people their own age would still watch.
I can say that the Japanese generally aren’t concerned about the presence of brief non-sexual nudity in children’s animation. For instance, My Neighbor Totoro is a beloved family film that contains a bathing scene. But I see that the Wikipedia entry on Sailor Moon suggests that the original creator of the comic didn’t approve of the addition of nudity to later episodes of the animated series, so it may be that these particular scenes were controversial even in Japan.
Adolescent same-sex crushes are also apparently not considered a particularly big deal in Japan, they seem to be regarded as a fairly normal phase that a lot of kids go through. However, not growing out of this is considered…odd. FWIW several people in Japan told me that they’d never met a homosexual, that homosexuality was a fairly recent phenomenon in Japan, and that there were no homosexuals (or at least no out homosexuals) except in big cities like Tokyo and Osaka.