How different is Japanese culture and psychology, really, from the "West"?

In My Humble Opinion
61

I get what you guys were saying. And admittedly I’ve never been to Japan so I don’t know first-hand what Japanese people think about animation. But it just seems like there’s too much anime with adult (or at least non-child-focused) themes and content for it to be strictly some weird fringe thing. If only a small, disreputable segment of people over the age of 12 watch anime, then why does adult-oriented anime keep getting made? Do they make it just for the otaku in the States?

For the record, I think anime fans in the States are a bad barometer for what’s actually popular in Japan. U.S. anime fans will embrace anything and everything from Japan but it’s more of subculture thing and has no basis in people watching shows aimed at their specific age groups. So you’ll get groups of college kids getting together to watch Pokemon or Naruto or other “kiddie” fare, even though they’re supposed to be well beyond that stuff age-wise. OTOH you have young people like my niece (who is also 14) who will play Pokemon video games but doesn’t watch the cartoon and hasn’t in years.

Now, when I say “adult-oriented anime”, I don’t mean stuff like Sailor Moon and Dragonball and whatnot. I recognize that shows like that have mostly kiddie appeal. But who watches grittier shows like Cowboy Bebop? What about Spice and Wolf, which features a shape-shifting character but has a lot of quiet, deliberately-paced political intrigue? I hesitate to think that it was aimed at young audiences; I do know that it was based on a popular novel/manga series, though. Then you have a whole slew of anime films that have adult content - Princess Mononoke has decapitation, dismemberment, lepers, (former) prostitutes, flesh-eating demon curses, and tons of other fun things, and it became the top-grossing film in Japan at the time. And one of my favorite Japanese film anecdotes is about how My Neighbor Totoro (a through-and-through family/kids film) was financed in large part due to a deal whereby the animated adaptation of Grave of the Fireflies (an extremely somber and serious war film) was financed as well - it was the war movie that got the kids movie the funding, essentially.

Again, I don’t really believe that everyone in Japan likes every type of anime. Obviously, there’s a whole lot made explicitly for kids (it seems there are many anime adaptations of video games as well). But there’s also a whole lot that has more adult appeal - even if it’s not considered universally acceptable to watch it, it’s still being made. Compared to what U.S. studios produce, there seems to be more mature animation coming out of Japan than the U.S., no matter who’s watching it. And, like I said before, there seem to be whole genres that American animators won’t even touch (drama, especially).

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Anime has a very convoluted history, and it’s not something everyone can agree on. Going back to Fushigina Melmo - a story about a girl who can physically change from a baby to an adult at whim, complete with panty shots, ripped clothing, sexual tension and lots of other weird stuff, the show was thought, by many adults, to be educational for kids.

63

I have no idea. There is non-mainstream entertainment produced in the US though, so I see no reason why there shouldn’t be media produced for niche markets in Japan.

Aren’t these all Studio Ghibli films? I believe those have already been mentioned as some of the only Japanese animated films taken seriously by mainstream audiences. (Disney and Pixar films are also popular with people of all ages – Finding Nemo was big when I was in Japan.) And while there was certainly stuff in Princess Monokoke that might disturb young children, it wasn’t considered an “adult” movie in Japan or in the US. It was rated PG-13 here, and PG-12 in Japan.

I really do not know enough about Japanese animation to answer your questions about who watches what or what’s considered suitable for whom, all I can do is repeat what people told me when I lived there: middle school kids said animated stuff was for younger children, and my coworker mentioned some anime as being targeted at loser teen boys. There were also shows that were considered fine for the whole family to watch and not strictly for kiddies. That’s really it as far as animated TV series that I heard about while living in Japan.

I do want to add, for the sake of anyone who might be in danger of doing so, that Japanese entertainment should not be taken as a guide to ordinary Japanese life. This isn’t to say that Japanese art does not in any way reflect Japanese life, just that the entertainment industry (in Japan and elsewhere) doesn’t deal primarily in gritty realism and that if one isn’t already familiar with the culture then it’s easy to misinterpret things.

This goes both ways, of course. When I was in college I remember a Japanese friend saying she knew all about American high schools because she’d watched Beverly Hills 90210. I don’t know if Glee or Two and a Half Men are broadcast in Japan, but if they are then some viewers may be drawing pretty strange conclusions about typical American life. But as silly as that may seem, I’m fairly certain that all of these shows are at least more realistic than Sailor Moon.

Well, maybe not Glee. :wink:

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Thanks for your insight, Lamia. I guess the point I was trying to make was that Japanese animators seem to take more chances on what they decide to adapt than American ones. Even if most of it is perceived as being “for kids” (or families), there’s still a lot more edgy content in Japanese animation than in American. Maybe that says more about the difference between Japanese and American youth and what’s acceptable for each group to be exposed to. In America it is very rare to see an animated film receive higher than a G rating; Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame had to be toned down to avoid a PG rating because the producers were terrified that it wouldn’t succeed if it were perceived as anything but a “family” film. Princess Mononoke was indeed rated PG-12 in Japan, but there was some controversy before its initial Stateside release: the U.S. distributors wanted to cut out the most violent parts of the film (Studio Ghibli wouldn’t allow it, however.)

It still fascinates me when a very adult film like Perfect Blue (which is similar in theme and adult content to Black Swan) is adapted via animation. If you grow up in a pop culture society dominated by Disney-type animated family films, then movies like that may be a shock to the system. However, animation is actually a very good medium for telling a story about subjective and dream-like realities.

65

“Nazi” stands for “National Socialism” – i.e. a nationalist group for the everyman. Given that most people are an “everyman” sort and most people are relatively patriotic/nationalist, of course you’ll find Americans who feel exactly like this. I’d venture to guess that a near majority of Americans could be classified as modern or “light” fascists. The idea of simple, down-home governance, tightly knit communities, and a focus on America’s problems over the worlds’ is fairly popular. Leaving off the requirement for a single, authoritarian leader, nothing else about Fascism necessitates that the word be held as all that negative a thing.

People were congratulating the Japanese for not having any looting, following the earthquake. They say that this is a good thing and shows how respectable and well-mannered the Japanese people are compared to Americans. Lots of Americans would prefer that the US were like that. Personally, I think of it as the price of individualism and libertarianism – people are more concerned with their own welfare than about acting with propriety – and so here we would have looting and vandalism. Personally, I prefer an individualist society, but I don’t fault people for disagreeing on that point. I don’t think that people who want order and simplicity are secretly Nazis. I’m simply pointing out that Fascism is not a product of an era which only lasted for a decade or two, nor did it rise in a vacuum. There are reasons for its success among the masses, and so far as I can tell many modern countries effectively still practice it – just minus the aspect of authoritarianism.

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I’m by no means an expert, and have never been to Japan. But I can at least recommend some books that are not actually about hentai or bonzai or whatever. I am really interested in Japan because to my western eyes, Japanese society strikes me as profoundly introverted. Speaking very broadly, its aesthetic is refined, slight, poignant, and understated. I marvel how even the mundanities of everyday life can be transformed by ritual into art that is both lofty yet demands humility at the same time.

Knowing a little about Japan also helps me understand my in-laws better.

These books are very short and were intended for a western audience.

The Book of Tea is one of my favorite books in any language. Of course it’s about far more than tea, since you can’t have a tea ceremony without proper architecture, art, and flowers. And you can’t have any of these unless you develop an appreciation for how Japanese perceive nature and the passing of seasons and the impermanence of all things.

Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind is a little dip into Japanese spirituality. It can be followed up with Zen and the Art of the Sword, a discussion of how Buddhism was packaged for the benefit of the samurai warrior class.

I have a little book of poems translated by Rexroth, but damn, someone must have borrowed it and I cannot recall the title. Perhaps for next time.

Oh, Stoid, married women of a certain class cover their front teeth in a sort of black paste, thereby indicating that she was married. When she laughed,she would not want anyone to see the metallic crap she wore in her mouth, so she covered it up. Covering up one’s face while laughing suggests coyness and cutesy to a western man, but not to a contemporary Asian man,

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OK, this fact alone would indicate there are some vast differences in attitudes towards education between Japan and America. What, exactly, is the root of this difference in thought - the idea that something like that could be educational for kids?

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Ah, thanks for clarifying.

Oh, certainly, I was just giving an example. I know America has similar overstatements and idiosyncrasies, though.

I was simplifying a tad, and mushukyo having a different connotation is the best bet. I do know most of those facts, but I still think that honne and tatemae play at least a small role in the apparent discrepancy.
Lamia/Sakuma –

I can’t find my cite right now, but I hear that the head of Gainax actually offered a course about Anime/Otaku culture at Tokyo University for a while for no reason other than to increase awareness of Otaku culture and staunch the overreaction and stigma. I may be misremembering something though since I can’t find my cite.

69

I’d have to disagree. In Korea, covering your mouth when you laugh is considered to be well-mannered and feminine. When I’m in the presence of elders that I’m not very close to, I will cover my mouth when I laugh out of habit. A lot of women I know do it when they’re in the presence of anyone outside of their close female friends.

Also, I’m pretty sure that blackening your teeth in Japan died out in the 1800s. I doubt it would affect the habits of contemporary Japanese.

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That would be a very interesting course. I think that a similar course on Japanese/Otaku culture was offered where I went to school. American otaku seem to encompass a general fondness for Japanese culture into their slate of interests (“Hey, everybody! I got some Pocky!” “YAAAAAAAY!”). Cosplay is also very popular in American otaku circles. It would be interesting to compare people considered to be “otaku” in Japan with their American counterparts, as well as with enthusiasts of other pop culture phenomena such as Star Trek (Trekkies also love cosplay and speaking foreign languages :slight_smile: ).

71

Maybe you could help me understand this a little better, because I’m seeing wildly separate definitions of the word in your different points. Does patriotism equal fascism? Does a concern for others over oneself? Previously you defined fascism as the following “Japan is a near-Fascist country. Everything is very insular. Everything you do is for the people, as the best people on the Earth. Japanese businesses work in the glory of the nation. Japanese media works for the glory of the nation.” (my bolding)

I’m specifically calling bullshit to your characterization of the Japanese and its society. I mentioned several specific counter examples.

Please list even a few ways how furitaa are examples of fascists, in any of the definitions you are proposing.

After thinking about this more, I’ll go with (d) none of the above. It’s an example of bad survey questions. If you ask a typical Japanese “Are you Buddhist, Christian, Shintoist(?), Moslem, or mushukyo, you’ll get the answer mushukyo which they are taking to mean “not a member of an organized religion.” If (generic) you then interpret that to mean “irreligious,” then that’s your problem, not Japanese giving tatemae answers.

If you want to know what Japanese feel about spirituality, then ask a question such as “Do you have a vague feeling that undefined “gods” or your ancestors somehow protect you, for which you are grateful, and you pray to them, but without a clearly defined creed?” Then my guess is that you will get a higher percentage who agree to that statement then the previous question.

This is also not to say that Japanese are not masters of honne and tatemae. Hearing how daughter-in-laws talk to their husbands’ mothers, you would never suspect they go back and write scathing comments on anonymous message boards. Oh wait, we do that one, too, except not nearly as well.

This is an example of how hard it is to examine other cultures based on one’s own cultural biases. Another fallacy is to think that because “Action A” is an indication of “Attribute B” in ones own culture, people from another culture also have Attribute B if they are doing Action A.

For example, I’m in Taiwan this week and it’s really nice how people give their seat on the subway or a bus which you’ve got a baby or toddler in tow. I took my daughter home from preschool yesterday, and she crashed in my arms. All the seats on the bus were occupied, including one of the priority seats by a young woman who was sleeping. In Japan, no one ever gives up seats for pregnant women, as my wife found out, or for parents of kids, but on the bus yesterday some middle aged lady woke the young woman up and told her to vacate the seat to me. Very much appreciated, and me 2 1/2 year old is getting heavier, and holding her on a moving bus is a job. Does this mean that Japanese are cold and uncaring and Taiwanese considerate and nice? Or does this mean that this is particularity of the two cultures in this specific example?

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It did. But at least from her and the women in her family’s point of view, the norm of covering one’s mouth endured even after the actual reason for it was no longer relevant.

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Do you prefer “dressing for an interview”, does it sound less imposed?

Most of the companies I’ve worked for didn’t bother with written dressing codes, but one of the first things I do when I get to a new place is check out how everybody is dressed, and dress to fit.

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Actually, all else being equal, it’s all about boobs.

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I think it was originally marketed as educational - teaching children about sexuality and reproduction, in a more direct way than had ever been done before. It was one of the few animes my wife was allowed, by her strict parents, to watch as a child.

Here is the wikipedia to give you some background.

You can also find the old episodes on youtube by searching for “Marvelous Melmo”.

Bear in mind that it was the 70’s.

In terms of your original question “How different is Japanese culture and psychology” I would say that human psychology is pretty much the same everywhere, but culture is a different thing altogether.

There are certainly many cultural differences in Japan, and they have been overly commented on by people from all walks of life and from many points in history, as I’m sure you know.

As to the ‘why’ question - you have to resign yourself to the fact that no one will ever be able to answer that question to the satisfaction of everyone. We can speculate, but I, for one, don’t have any ideas that haven’t already been published.

76

This is a great point, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen it stated this clearly before.

I’m surprised to hear this because when I visited Kyoto I was asked (through gestures) to give up my seat on a crowded bus for a pregnant woman by an older woman I assume was the grandmother-to-be. But I guess she might have approached me instead of a Japanese passenger because she believed a foreigner would be more willing to give up a seat for a pregnant woman! She didn’t speak English so she wasn’t just using it as a chance to practice her English.

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I have a question for the Japan experts in this thread. What influence do you think ‘yamato nadeshiko’ or ‘yamato damashii’ have in current Japanese society?

A link for the rest of us: Yamato nadeshiko - Wikipedia

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Are you sure it was only women? Wikipedia says it was done by aristocrats and even by the common folk for celebrations. Several sources I’ve read say it was considered aesthetically pleasing, which means women wouldn’t cover their mouths to hide it.

Anyway, even if it is a leftover from those times, I doubt “contemporary Asian men” have reactions that are colored by obsolete customs. I’m pretty sure they would view it as Western men would - most find it cute and feminine, others find it annoying.

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No, I’m not sure. My quick search of the tradition of ohaguro turns up that it was indeed mostly married women, though others did do it, too. Searching turns up some alternative explanations for mouth covering that seem to parallel the motivation for ohaguro.

Contemporary people of all kinds have reactions colored by old customs that have lost their context. I don’t think this is such a revolutionary idea that it needs scare quotes. I have no prior beliefs about how Japanese men view covering one’s mouth, to be honest. I just don’t presume that they take it the same way as western men might. How Japanese society constructs masculinity and femininity seems like deep water to me and is not exactly covered in the Book of Tea.

80

Not sure what you mean by this. I was just quoting the specific phrase you used, and based on my experience as a Korean, objecting to the idea that