How difficult is it for an American to truly comprehend British things and vice versa

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m thinking of writers, TV shows, comedy, sport, etc. Is it the case that however much a person from one side of the Atlantic wants to access and understand things rooted on the other side, and however long s/he has lived there, s/he will never have the same insight into or understanding of that aspect which a native will have? And is it perhaps the case that the more they strive for or yearn for this understanding, the less it will be theirs? And is one way to compensate for the lack which one knows oneself to possess to accumulate facts and data because one realises that the all pervading imaginative flavour is something that will always remain elusive?

Or can a Brit understand the American Constitution equally as an American, or an American cricket equally as an Englishman?

2

Hmm, That’s a very intresting question.

I think as societal creatures we have a tendacy to bond with our own kind. I believe it’s either intrinsic or maybe it’s learned from early childhood. But in either case: No, I don’t think a Brit can look at the Constitution in the same way an American does. (Alll though, I’m sure we could find better examples than the constitution but such an example eludes me at the moment)

And vise versa of course.

This isn’t to say one can’t take a genuine love or intrest of another culture though.

3

It has been my experience that British (really Europeans in general) have a better grasp of the American Constitution than the average American. I have no idea why, or even if my perception is real: maybe it’s taught more extensively there for some odd reason, or maybe the Europeans who visit here (who make up my sample set) are motivated to learn it. So that might not be the best example.

But IMHO, I can’t imagine that any of these examples are actually that fundamental. Humans are humans, and on average what one of us can learn, another can. Certainly language would seem more fundamental than any of your examples, and many people can pick up another language to fluency even in adulthood (admittedly non-trivially).

4

I think it’s more likely that people who are better educated in such matters are more likely to travel to the US in the first place. (Having been to the UK on occasion, I can confirm that there are Brits who know less about their Parliament than I do.)

5

Well, I would take that to rather support my position. I’m speaking from the perspective of someone married to a Chinese person whose English is good enough for her to be a Principle Instructor of the language (English) at a university.

And I’m not just talking about those “slips”, most common in idiomatic situations, that show that they understand a lot less than they let on. (And the fact that these slips rarely are mainifested does not necessarily mean that they happen very rarely. After all, one of the key weapons in the armoury of a smart, motivated, fluent second/foreign language learner is to develop strategies - humour, smiling, silence, shifting the semiotic plane (i.e. changing the subject) etc. etc. - to cover their ignorance.) As an example of such a “slip”, recently, while watching ‘Glengarry Glen Ross’ together on DVD, my wife asked me - midway through, when presumably it was irking her and she ahd been unable to work it out from the context - “What’s a lead?”. The fact that it was a DVD, rather than a VCD, was significant, as on DVDs we use the English subtitle function, whereas nearly all VCDs produced for the HK market carry Chinese subtitles. So, if it had been a VCD, she wouldn’t have asked, because she’d have received the answer via translation.

There’s the whole not getting the flavour of the thing. I would imagine that, if I had any interest in American sport, I would be able to mug up on facts and figures about football, say, and indeed would do so to prove myself (much like the “woman in business” who needs to work twice as hard to get the same rewards), but I would somehow never quite understand the game as an American would. Perhaps, indeed, my desire to quote stats would actually in one sense be proving that.

I’m reminded of the film ‘Green Card’. What would have convinced me as an investigator that the Depardieu character was a phoney was the very fact that he “knew” everything about his wife. Her habits, yes. All married men know those, because they in turn delight or irritate them. But her history, friends, gossip, choice of perfume, etc., no. Most of us surely learn to block that out!

6

I once read a biographic book by a man researching east Asia, the book was specifically about Japan. I forgot the title and the author, but in the book the man states: “Nobody who has not been born in Japan can truly understand the Japanese way of thinking.”.

It’s a harsh statement, but he has a point. If you’re trying, as a Brit, to be American, you’re only looking at America from a British point of view. You could possibly minimize the disparancies between both sides with an extended knowledge, but it would still be a knowledge gathered and filtered through a British mind.

7

And my point is that those who attempt most to become Japanese (go native) or to get inside the mind of the English, say, are those least likely to achieve their goal, because those they are attempting to be like, the Japanese and the English, are what they are, have the insights they have and understand things the way they do precisely because they don’t strive to do so.

8

IME one problem is language - because we share a language we think we share an understanding or view of the world. Having to learn a foreign language gives you an insight into how that culture vworks on a deeper level (obvious examples being things such as the way Spanish has two verbs for the English ‘be’, English differentiates between ‘make’ and ‘do’)you may not get all philisophocal about it but you know at some level that you’re dealing with a different set of rules.

Sharing a language (and now so many TV shows etc.) blurs that lulling you into a false sense of security and familiarity, especially when different forms of English have given different nuances to different items of vocab. You have to really tell yourself that this is something foreign before you can start to really understand it. Just my ha’penny’s worth :wink:

9

I don’t expect to understand or be understood by Americans/American culture any more than I would expect the same of, say, the Belgians. I know it’s been said more eloquently and famously, but the fact that we speak similar languages means very little in terms of our national and cultural identities. We are foreigners to each other; to imagine otherwise is to be deluded.

10

Cricket.

Every time somebody starts explaining the rules of cricket, I get facial twitch, & then I start screaming.

11

You must also consider the importance of parental influence (maternal, in particular) with regard to cultural identity and understanding. The first few years of life – while our brains are quite efficient sponges- are vitally important in shaping forever our cultural identification. Certainly, our cultural mind-set continues to evolve beyond childhood, but I don’t believe that it does to nearly the same extent. The main question is: what influences cultural identification and development the most in a young child, parentage or geographic location? Surely, both do, but I believe that geography takes a back seat to mom and dad.
I was born and bred in America and therefore I feel and think like an American, but not exclusively. My mother, an English-born and bred WWII war bride, had as great an influence on my cultural indoctrination and development as did my geographic location. My sister was born in England 16 months before my mother moved to America, my brother was born shortly after the move and I was born 9 years later. My sister feels quite British, my brother less so, and I, less still (mom’s *British-ness *was diluted 9 years by the time I came on the scene). Although I have visited Europe only briefly, in many respects, I feel bi-[del]sexual[/del] :smiley: cultural. Mom Anglican-ized me very successfully. (Cricket feels right to me, bocce does not).
Many people, particularly in the melting pot of America, feel relatable to cultures not their own, due to the influence of their ancestral cultural heritage. I would guess that the magnitude of influence may be inversely proportional to the number of generations one is removed from the alien culture. For example, my paternal side ancestry (itself, less influential to a young child than the maternal side) is predominately German. However, I am three generations removed from any direct German ancestry, therefore, although some Germanic customs and thought possesses survived into my upbringing, the influence was minimal.
You can, of course extrapolate this up to the national level, and say, for example, that Americans can relate best to the cultures of its immigrant makeup. Studying immigration statistics (when, where and how many) should give you a handle on this.

12

I recall seeing an interview with one of the Pythons (Cleese, I think) where he said they were all convinced the show would tank in the U.S. because it had too many British references for Americans to understand.

Things turned out differently.

13

Heh. I managed to watch ten minutes of the Superbowl. And only that much because I was a bit drunk.

14

My POV as a Legal Alien:
Building on what others have said, the biggest mistake anyone can make is assuming that just because the British and Americans speak the same language, we possess a much greater degree of cultural similarity than other nations. We don’t. The fact that we share the same first language (and can therefore express and explain our differences to each other with a great deal of complexity) does mean, however, that it is possible to explain, understand and overcome our cultural differences far faster and to a greater degree of certainty than any interaction between cultures that don’t share a primary language.

Its always worth remembering that a lot of our cultural identity and understanding comes from shared or similar experiences with others. From a social perspective, most of those shared experiences happen at a time when we are all living broadly similar lives to our peers - childhood and early adulthood. The upbringing of your average British kid is a world apart from that of your average American kid - the tv is different, the education system is different, the memorable times and historic events are also different - or at least carry different importances and perspectives. We even “come of age” in completely different ways and at different times in our lives. On top of this, the consumer culture and big brands in America are very different from those in Britain - sure people like Kellogs are global, but the majority of the small stuff that you recognise from home (in either country) cannot be found in the other.

Why does all this matter? Well these are all things that have had a major role in informing our beliefs (and predjudices) and providing the context and framework in which we exist. Next time you are talking to friends or are at a social gathering*, make a note of just how many conversations, arguments and jokes rely on an implicit understanding of a concept or physical object that relates to something in the above paragraph. You’ll also find that most of those that don’t still rely on knowledge of a long-passed event, national personality or tv programme that never left the national shores (again, this applies to both countries).

Speaking as a toast-done-on-one-side eating, you-drink-coffee-i-drink-tea-my-dear Englishman exiled to these barbarian shores i can honestly say that the biggest problem i have here is not understanding what people are saying, but understanding what people mean.** The fact that i’m saying that as a Londonner living in New York speaks volumes, because there are no other two cities in the world who can claim to be so geographically and culturally distant and yet so similar on so many fundamental levels.

I feel my most alien in a social setting, because i have a tremendously difficult time relating the experiences and culturally-linked metaphors of Joe American to those of Johnny British and i have to think very carefully about my own comments and vocabulary in conversations to make sure that the Septics i’m speaking to don’t have the same problem.***

That’s not to say the vast majority of those differences can’t be overcome, however. It just takes time and cultural context. There’s also, as has been pointed out, a difference between “understanding” the culture and “getting” it.

Take sport, for example, I’m a massive football (proper football :wink: ) fan, and sports fandom is something that translates pretty easily across both cultures. I’ve always known the basic rules of American Football, but never really felt any kind of “connection” to it until moving to New York when now, suddenly, i’ve got a team i can identify with and root for. I’ll happily talk about our performance this season down my local bar - and out of enjoyment of the sport too, not solely in order to feel or look “American.” I “get” football - and over time i’ll also “understand” it as i build up both knowledge of its history and my own experiences.

Conversely, there are also things i will probably “understand” but never “get” purely because the cultural divide is just too great. I understand what the Constitution is, for example, and the role it plays in US politics, government and culture probably better than most americans because its something i’ve actively had to study since being over here in order to get inside the American psyche (and so that i can throw peanuts at the tv like everyone else in the bar when George Bush Jnr is up there talking about how he’s not ignored it :wink: ). I’ll never “get” it though. Similarly the Myth of the American Revolution will always be alien to me - largely because i definitely know more about most americans than that (i studied it at university), and because no matter how long i lived here, i’d always be a Red Coat deep down.

I guess what i’m saying, in summary, is that i think it is possible for a non-native to truly comprehend British (or American) things given time, but probably not all of them. The number of those things that will forever remain alien is also probably smaller and the time it takes to grasp the others less lengthy than for many different cultures, however. This is because we do, broadly speaking, share a language and because there are sufficient broadly similar cultural hooks to allow entry into all but the most unique of beliefs (our “first time i went drinking legally” stories and yours may differ by a few years, but they both indubitably ended up with us looking stupid, throwing up and waking up with a road sign and/or traffic cone in our bedrooms).

So basically us foreigners can be just as good Americans as you lot - just remember you’ve probably had a 20 year head start. :smiley:

*Business is different of course, business has been sufficiently international for a long time and is sufficiently rules-based for all but the most peculiar cultural differences to stand out.

**i like to call this “Cultural Friction” - the idea that people rely on familiar cultural elements to get them through conversations. The greater the difference in cultural background between you and the rest of the conversations participants, the more you’ll be unable to get a grip on the conversation and eventually slip out of it completely.

***Interestingly i’ve noticed the subtle defensive position that this brings about - there are times i find myself acting more English over here than i do at home out of a need for security in what has become (unwittingly) a hostile cultural environment. Luckily this generally manifests itself in the form of increased tea drinking rather than an overwhelming urge to try and collect back taxes from you and/or burn the Whitehouse.

15

Britain and the States aren’t as separate as any two countries, though. The very fact that we do speak a common language means that we get each other’s television, unsubtitled movies, etc. There’s also quite a tradition of Anglophilia in the States. We love our British novels and Masterpiece Theatre. This may not go very far towards making us actually understand each other (and the recent godawful motion pictures of P&P, Vanity Fair, etc. bring that point home), but we are not as estranged as the average pair of countries.

16

Huh ? What would be your average pair ? Kenya & Korea ? New Zealand & Australia ? Norway & Sweden ? Honduras & Bosnia ?

17

This is fascinating, garius, and it makes a lot of sense. Would you mind giving specific examples about memorable events and coming of age experiences in Great Britain vs. the US?

18

You say “potato”, but I say “potato”
(probably better sung…)

There are several interesting aspects to this thread.

TV and the Internet probably give us most information aobut other countries culture (or stereotypes).

There can be a language barrier (and we may not realise it when we both speak English)

Let me add that I know what a short leg is in cricket and what a flea-flicker is in American football. :cool: Both games can be understood in time.

19

I think the same thing tends to apply with regard to American understanding of English cultural artefacts such as the works of C.S. Lewis or Monty Python. The tendency to make the works iconic, and to systematise and formalise the approach to the works, evidenced for example by the importance attached to quoting chunks (as a child might have been made to memorise chunks of the Bible in former ages) with regard to the latter, and to attend to minutiae as a “scholar” with regard to the former might be said to attest to this. It might be argued that in each case, the focus on form, rather than bringing deeper understanding to the would-be learner, is actually bringing less. Or does this all reveal that the person approaching these works does not really want to learn at all, but rather to impose their understanding upon others? Another instance of cultural imperialism, perhaps?

20

roger thornhill writes:

> I would imagine that, if I had any interest in American sport, I would be able to
> mug up on facts and figures about football, say, and indeed would do so to
> prove myself (much like the “woman in business” who needs to work twice as
> hard to get the same rewards), but I would somehow never quite understand
'> the game as an American would.

I think a British fan of American football knows far more about the sport than I do, despite the fact that I grew up in an American community where it was expected that everybody attended the high school football games and the majority of high school boys played football. I think that I know far more about C. S. Lewis than a British person who’s read a couple of his books. These are things where the knowledge of them is formalized. Better examples are areas where the knowledge is not formalized. As an American, it was considerably harder for me to understand what topics could be brought up in a conversation and in what order, or how to ask for a date, or how one orders drinks in a pub, or how one dresses in any given social situation, or how and when one complains, or how one avoids coming across as a show-off, or how the social class system works, or any number of other things that are never explicitly taught to people (well, except by sociologists or anthropologists trying to understand the culture). There’s nothing mystical about the knowledge that a native has. It’s just not generally taught except implicitly as one grows up.