Offering one’s child up to be murdered is probably not high on most atheists’ lists, I have to give you that, Gbro.
Remember Abraham, God tested him by ordering him to sacrifice his only son. Then stopped him and had him sacrifice the Ram instead.
Abraham had faith in God just like all of us should.
Given you do not believe in the Resurrection i will accept what you say. but I believe in the Resurrection!
“Unselfish” ? You know, if my father had stood by and let me be tortured to death when he could have easily stopped it, ‘selfish’ is the LEAST of the accusations I’d level at him. But then, I have much higher standards for my father than the believers have for God.
Your God, assuming he actually existed, could have stopped Jesus’s death. He CERTAINLY didn’t need Jesus or anyone else to die just so he could forgive us for “crimes” he defined himself. It was an example of pure selfishness, at best. Your God is a monster.
Christianity is just another pack of delusions created by lunatics and con men. It doesn’t require “Grace”; it requires fools and predators to become it’s followers. And there’s no shortage of those.
Abraham was a monster just like his god. A god or anyone that demands you sacrifice your son is your enemy and should be treated as such. This is an example of why if there is a god, we’d be better off trying to find a way to kill him, not follow him.
A foolish belief.
Der Trihs, your fallacy is that you seem to think religion = Christianity. It doesn’t. What I posted referred to religion in totality.
gbro, your fallacy is that your proof is based on faith or the bible, which is to say, no objective proof at all. As a Christian, you must learn to accept that you believe what you believe solely on the basis of faith, for there is no rational basis for what you believe: there is exactly the same factual evidence for it that there is for Santa Claus or Zeus. You’re allowed to do that; in fact, within the Church, you’re encouraged to.
You can evangelize, but around here you’re not going to get very far. We tend to be a bunch who, while we have a some religious members, lean more heavily to the atheistic than the general population, especially in threads like these. Der Trihs is the most extreme of us, but he’s usually expressing a very brutal version of what most of us more or less believe. If you’re looking for converts, this is not a place where you will ever, ever find them. I don’t think in the entire history of this board, anyone has ever been converted to Christianity. I think there may be a few cases where people found their path to atheism hastened, but I don’t have a cite for that. I just have a vague memory of someone mentioning it, and I could be wrong about that.
Boy, are you in the wrong place.
Just as a note; if you want to quote people, it’s much easier to click the little “Reply” button at the bottom right of their post, which gives you a post screen with their post already in it. Although it doesn’t work so well for multiple posts, alas.
Anyway, thanks for your answer. I’d be interested to know your answer to my first question though - especially in light of your answer to the second. You refer to your understanding beforehand as limited; would it be fair to judge the person you used to be as “bad”, when you weren’t yet aware or understanding or the world to the extent you are now?
It seems to me that if there is a set, universal moral code that requires we all adhere to it in order that we be “good”, then people who don’t know or recognise that code surely can’t be good or bad purposefully.
While i’d agree with that to the extent that there are many atheists on the board, I think that’s pretty much the only point on which Der Trihs captures everyone’s own thoughts, even as a more brutal version.
Well, I was focusing on Christianity because that’s the religion that’s mostly come up in this thread, and on this board for that matter. Other religions suffer from the same fundamental problem with regards to morality; they may have a different set of delusional beliefs than Christianity, but they all have them. That’s what makes them religions. You are not going to get sound moral judgement, or and other kind for that matter when you base that judgement on things that don’t exist.
Right click and open each reply as a separate tab or window. Write a reply to each, then use cut-and-paste to put them all in a single reply box. Highlight and copy the whole thing in case the board decides to eat your reply. Click Preview/Submit Reply and you’re done ! That’s what I do, when replying to multiple posts in the same thread.
But the basic rules for living, Der Trihs. You keep ignoring those. Don’t lie (leave it to the god or state), don’t go around strangling your neighbors (leave it to the god or state), don’t steal (leave it to the god or state), don’t rape (leave it to the god or state or when one or the other tells you you’re supposed to). It’s not perfect. Not at all. But it’s probably better than no civilization at all. That’s my point. Religion is a good tool for bringing societies together. Good because effective, not good because moral. All societies have to have those basic rules. All societies have those exceptions for their gods and/or for the state. All of them. That’s one of the reasons why I include Marxism and Fascism as religions - that and the fact that they depend on Received Wisdom for their doctrine.
People with power deriving from any source are going to abuse it. Religion is no exception, and it grants exceptional power. It lends itself to particular abuse because its rituals are often arcane. But then, secrets are inherent in the operations of State as well. You know darned well that I don’t like religion. But I have to grant the devil his due, pun reluctantly intended.
It IS no civilization at all. “Don’t commit these deeds unless we tell you to, or if you can convince yourself that God ( or whatever ) wants you to” is no restraint at all. Far from restraining people’s barbaric behavior, religion encourages and excuses it.
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree, then. I think civilization itself, which religion aids, restrains barbaric behavior, at least within the society itself. Sometimes it channels it to specific targets within or without the society, but you don’t get the random anarchy you might well get with no civilization and a dense population. (We don’t really know, because you can’t actually get a dense population of humans without a civilization).
But then, I don’t think that religion aids civilization either, but undercuts it.
Is there that much difference among human beings? I try to be discerning, but it too often turns to judgment. Unlike Superfluous Parenthesis, I don’t think we should take a hard critical look at people unless we are going to marry them. Most of the time our fellow human beings should get lots of slack. As for ourselves – to everything there is a season.
Because I am a human being, I am capable of great cruelty under the right circumstance. I believe this to be true for myself because I have luxuries when others die of starvation. I don’t have to know the teachings of Jesus to know that that is immoral, but it is a reminder.
If I sold this computer, how many lives could I save? Does it matter that this computer belongs to a Christian?
I don’t feel underguned. In fact I thought you guys(no-believers) would be tougher;)
That was in jest as I am in over my head as I have such a long way to go in establishing my faith. And yes it is faith.
I am not ashamed of being a believer. It brings me peace.
Yes Revenant Threshold, I was BAD, Rotten to the core. It took a long time to confess and ask for forgiveness. In fact it took 2 years and stern counciling from my Pastor to get it through my rotten thick skull that I could be forgiven. It took many apologies and lots of Praying before I felt like a decent human being again.
I was so full of Hate that I couldn’t sleep nights. Hate is like a Cancer. It eats one up.
Lust is another terrible sin that I had/have to deal with. I pray that I have control of that.
I do know full well that I can slip and fall on my face. This is because we are all alike. I am still a decedent of Adam and have to Die because of sin. However I have faith in the Lord that I will, Yes “Will” go to heaven.
And Reverend,
To answer your 1st Question.
I will again refrain from any judgment as that isn’t my place.
We have been studying the book of Romans (that is a deep important book, as it brings relevance to life today), And yes everyone needs to hear the Gospel. Even the Pygmies in Africa need to hear the Good News that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that He died for us so that we may “Only” enter the kingdom of Heaven through him.
I struggle with understanding why someone is doomed that hasn’t at least heard the Gospel. But the great commission is the assignment Jesus gave to Us believers. it is our responsibility to get the message out.
You won’t convience any one by using the Bible(Which by the way was copied and translated by monks of the Catholic Church). Human’s wrote the Bible and humans said it was “God’s” word or inspired by God. There is no way of proving that God had anything to do with it.
It is your belief and the belief of many others, but there are also people who believe the Koran and other writings. So it is a matter of what human you believe.
Like you say, find a church that meets your needs, that is your personal choice but there are many who find they do not need a church and do just fine. Some of the most Moral people I know are atheists.
Monavis
Please give proof that the Bible was authored by God Himself. You just believe the persons who said God authored it.
Monavis
You were taught that it is your responsibility to get the message out, and that is your right.Just do not think you can convince any one else who have lived and have found they can have a better more peaceful life by following the teachings that are different, or their own way that their life experiences have taught to use their own minds.
One tends to believe what ones desires the way they want things to be.
Where is the kingdom of heaven? Didn’t Jesus teach," it was with in you"?
Monavis
And yet another reason to despise Christianity; it’s hostility to any form of pleasure that doesn’t involve malice.
Mortality is a matter of biology, not “sin”. And there never was an Adam.
So what ? There’s no heaven and no “lord”, and no amount of faith will change that. Faith isn’t a virtue, it’s a defect. Faith will no more allow you into heaven than it will allow you into Oz.
That’s because Christianity is a disease. A virus of the mind that eats people from the inside and turns them into nothing but vectors for it’s spread.
And the Christian religion is most certainly NOT “good news”. It’s a grim, hateful curse upon humanity. A religion of hatred towards oneself ( you provide plenty of examples in this thread ), towards others, and hate towards the universe itself. An omnimalignant religion of death worship that actively works to bring about the end of humanity and civilization, and in my opinion the greatest evil that has ever existed. I despise all religion, but Christianity is pretty much at the bottom.
Because the God you worship is an evil God. Fortunately, he’s imaginary.
Der Trihs reply to Lust
Malice is a legal term referring to a party’s intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied.
So Der, if you lust after a mans wife, their is no harm in it? Or you say a 15 year old girl that its ok as long as it is just satisfying your fantasy?(I see fantasy is one of your interests)
Now I have heard and this is only hearsay. But one of the reasons a non-believer disregards the Gospel is that they do not want to think that something they enjoy is wrong. They want to be in control of their moral compass.
Now like I have posted, I was baptized as a infant and went through everything the RCC required, but that was because I would have gotten the belt had I not gone, and believe me I learned only to go with the flow. One could always say that he is a Christian even in this example. And I would have probably even claimed, as I was indoctrinated if you will. Well my life was not lived anything like a, What I now know to be a Christian life.
So in all reality, I was just like you. I had no time for God.
Thankfully that ended when I went to a church with my then Ex-Wife and was impressed with Pastor Karl’s sermon. I wanted to hear more.
Some might say that I was a Christian because of my upbringing, But I say I was born again just as Jesus tell in John 3-(5-8).
Hey, We are remarried and life is much more rewarding today.
Gbro, I ask this with all honesty and no snark intended. How do you know that Christianity is true? More to the point, how do you know that Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and Pastafarianism are not true? Why believe one book but not all those other books that have exactly the same amount of evidence for them?