Well the Greeks and Romans preceded Christianity in influencing Western society. Did they leave behind no ethical, legal, or philosophical legacy?
Great point. It’s not like the Christians invented ‘goodness’.
Two points. First, although it is difficult (impossible, really) to summarize a moral theory in a sentence or two, I would say that evil is that which unjustly harms the interest of humans or transgresses against the inviolability of the human person. As to how this definition is justified, I gave you a link to an article on contractarianism, to which I cannot do justice in a single post. If you want to dismiss 4 centuries of secular moral theory, you are going to have to do more than ask “Who decides?”
Second, the question of “Who decides?” is as acute, if not more acute, for theists than atheists. Despite the handwaving by many theists, there is obviously deep disagreement among theists (both through history and even among contemporaries) about what God wants, and no good way of deciding what God wants. Even if you can decide which religion is right, and which sect of which religion is right, and which religious books are authoritative, you have the question of interpretation. For example, I assume you don’t interpret the above quote from Paul as justifying slavery, but that’s an interpretive question. And you only have to look around you to see that if you have 2 theists, you’ll have 3 interpretations of scripture.
First off, i’d say that wasn’t a deflection of all criticism. Just the criticism of using specific bad (or good) acts by atheists to show atheism is prone to those things. I’ve not seen this argument used, for example, to deflect the criticism that atheism ignores the spiritual side of life.
As to your point; which cases of religious people considered to have done bad deeds then being brought up as examples of bad (or good) acts to show religion is prone to those things irregardless of whether religion was the motivating factor do you have in mind? Are there specific religious people who committed bad deeds who have been assumed by atheists to have been motivated by religion when in fact their religion played no part in it?
But those societies likewise are full of ancient values. Human society did not begin two thousand years ago, nor did no cultures interact after that. Just as the Christianity of two thousand years ago affects society today, so too does the Judaism of hundreds of years before that, and whatever proto-religions affected them in turn. It’s silly to claim both that today Western society is largely Christian in nature thanks to thousands-year-old values and then say that no atheist is affected by thousands-year-old values. You are, we are. Your life experience as a Christian and mine as an atheist are equally affected, even today, by those ancient values.
I agree. But this is not something only affecting atheism. Let’s hop in our time machine and go back those thousands of years and talk to a Christian then. Let’s go back just a thousand, and talk to another. Let’s go back 500 years - even, perhaps, just 50. Do you think that all those Christians that we speak to will have the same conception of what is good and what is evil? I doubt it; because even within Christianity or any religion standards of good and evil have changed over time, affected by societal standards, by time. Even today, if we went out into a random street and asked ten Christians their views on good and evil - we’d get Anglicans, Catholics, Methodists, and even within those groups they’d still not be in full agreement.
As for your point about atheism doing good - yes, I agree with that. A person motivated solely by atheism is highly unlikely to do either good or evil purely because of that. Likewise, I would not accuse you of doing good nor evil because of your theism.
And by the way, although most theists think that if you believe in God defining good and evil is easy as pie, the problem was actually too hard even for Socrates to figure out. So don’t be so sanguine about theistic prospects for a quick and easy definition.
Incorrect. Ancient or modern, there’s only so much a government can do to hold a society together. A society of amoral predators would tear itself down rapidly, assuming it even managed to build much of a society in the first place.
God, assuming he existed has no right to set standards of behavior, and if he does so anyway that doesn’t make those standards right. As for “Law”; if you mean secular law, it was invented because everything wasn’t “running smoothly” without it. If you mean religious law, it’s just part of religion’s nature to try to twist and subordinate everything according to it’s pattern.
“Unchristian” ? That’s a very Christian attitude.
And why would anyone believe you, when you say you don’t hate them, despite praying for them because they “sin” ? And by calling homosexuality a sin, you place yourself firmly in the ranks of the bigots.
Exactly my point. Atheism isn’t a belief system; it’s one belief, and not a belief on the subject of morality. It is as amoral as the belief that rocks are hard. It’s virtue is that it fits reality. Atheists on average will be morally superior and show better judgement due to them ignoring the craziness of religion, not because atheism is moral in itself; the problem is that religion is bad, not that atheism is good.
Oh, please; that’s the standard religious argument. Look at your own refusal to admit to any of Christianity’s negatives in this very thread. The difference is, atheists are right; atheism doesn’t have anything to it that can motivate anyone. You are comparing apples and oranges; comparing a single belief that demands nothing, makes no statements about good or bad, with massive belief systems that declare what’s good and bad, demand all sorts of behavior, and have their own psychotic worldview. There’s no comparison.
Of course it’s material to the discussion. Again, this is an example of how religion likes to steal the credit for things. Christianity doesn’t get the credit for everything that happens in a society that happens to have Christians in it, much less ideas that predate Christianity. Especially not moral principles that oppose typical christian behaviors and attitudes. When it comes to social progress, Christianity lost; it tried to hold humanity back, to subjugate them, and having failed on many fronts it tries to take credit for what it fought against.
Is this being pushed in churches ? The only people I see make the “defense” of simply refusing to debate are people defending religion. Your position being fundamentally indefensible probably helps, of course.
As I said, no, or not directly. Atheism tends to produce better behavior because it’s right; it fits reality, religion does not, and following reality produces better judgement, including moral judgement. But in itself, it makes no moral statements; it’s just one belief.
Atheism is morally neutral; religion is evil, or insane, and usually both. Atheism makes you less likely to be bad, it doesn’t make you good or motivate you in any way. Atheists don’t do anything “because they are atheists”, not even argue in atheism’s favor; atheism says there are no gods; not that a lack of gods is desirable or that believing in them is bad. I do think a lack of gods is good and that believing in them is bad; but that’s not atheism.
Read my previous post, the answer is in the first part.
Der Trihs, thanks for the answer. Gimme a break even when I concede, I lost, you won.
[quote=“Der_Trihs, post:146, topic:465774”]
For someone who doesn’t believe you still want to dictate who can define behavior. Is there also some Hate mixed in there? What happened to you to make you this way??
I am only talking about Gods Law. I have respect for Man(secular) law but it is Gods Law that defines who I am. (example, Tho shall not covet our neighbors wife, possessions, etc. and that even the desire/thoughts about such are sins).
Why would you say that? I have changed my personnel life to be a better person. I am a Reborn Christian
I do not lie. What would I lie for?? I can only feel that you think a person cannot change to make a statement like that. I will pray for your soul.
I found the book “I Choose to be Happy” at barns an nobel. It cost $20&change but its a new release and I look forward to reading it.One of my Daughters works in a Children Prison (if you will) A place where some of those children that kill are sent. She has to do a lot of praying to be able to deal with all the lost children in that place. Those children have told he that they know they are going to hell for what they have done. She is bringing to those children the “Good News” that they can be saved. She is very popular with those kids as she is recovering from an injury and they look out for her (she sure can’t condone that, but it is comforting to me as I feel she is safe(er)). She dose something so many haven’t done for them. She “listens”, and has compassion.
You and your fellow believers are the ones who claim that God has some special right to tell us what to do. You are the ones asserting who can and can’t say what’s right and wrong.
I’ve watched religion spread cruelty and bigotry and madness, suffering and death across the world, that’s what.
Because of thousands of years of Christian hatred, bigotry and brutality. The only reason Christians pretend to be peace loving now, is because they no longer have the ability to use murder and torture openly to get their way. Christianity is a religion that was built with hatred and slaughter.
Because it is the nature of people who base their morality on religion, that they have none. Because it is the nature of believers that they will do anything to protect and promote their faith. And, because it is the nature of believers that they have no respect for objective reality, and thus no respect for truth.
Neither I nor anyone else has a soul, prayer is useless, and what you fail to grasp is that I consider becoming more religious a change for the worse.
In other words, I’m supposed to be impressed that they are being told they can be “saved” from a threat that Christianity made up in the first place. And the very concept of Hell is one of the things that makes Christianity so evil.
I honestly can’t believe the list of genociders (Is that a word? Does it mean what I think it means or is it something you order at Gordon Biersch?) is still an issue in this thread.
I think if that list is going to be evidence, then it’s better evidence for:
-
Women are more moral than men (9 of 9 on the list are men)
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Civilians are more moral then soldiers/military leaders (9 of 9 on the list are soldiers/military leaders)
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Africans and Americans are more moral than Europeans and Asians (9 of 9 on the list are from Eurasia)
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Regular people are more moral than politicians (9 of 9 on the list are politicians) - OK, this one I think we all agree on
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People living anytime other than the 20th century are more moral than people who lived in the 20th century (9 of 9 on the list were active 1923-1987)
Than it is for the notion that theists are more moral than atheists.
I like that the list is as good evidence for the idea that people with 3 or less vowels in their name are more moral than people with 4 or 5 vowels in their name (6 of the 9)
That list:
Joseph Stalin
Mao Tse-tung
Adolf Hitler
Chiang Kai-shek
Vladimir Lenin
Tojo Hideki
Pol Pot
Yahya Khan
Josip Broz
Gbro; You are believing in what the persons who wrote the Bible. You are helped in your personal life because you want that to be a fact. All belief is not fact. There is many things that were taught in the past that is not true.
If you study History you will find that there are many things in the Bible that can be proved as untrue. Archologists have proven a lot to be not true and even some things can be prove to be contradictory.
Belief is just that and a personal thing. Like a medication it can be helpful to some and bad for a person who is allergic to it.
Monavis
Gbro;
I should have added that there were laws to promote the reasons for being kind to each other long before Judaism;
Hammurabi an Egyptian was the first one in History to teach there was just one God,He also had a ten Commandment like laws. Hammurabi was centuries before the 10 Commandments and there is no Historical proof that Moses even was a real historical person.
Monavis
Does this statement apply to all Christians? It certainly appears to be written that way.
Only if you are deliberately trying to misread it. Does the true statement “Men are taller than women” mean that ALL men are taller than ALL women ? No.
Not Hammurabi, of the code, but Akhnaten. That’s the first link I got in Google, it doesn’t look like the best one. Hammurabl was in Babylon, IIRC.
I Believe
I’m not deliberately trying to misread it (although it now sounds like you’re suggesting I am) - I’m just trying to understand what you said.
I would actually quite likely express the same perplexity on encountering the statement ‘men are taller than women’ - without specific qualifiers, it looks like a general or universal statement - I would very probably answer: “what? All of them?” - and in the case of the post I queried, starting it out with “the only reason…” does somewhat compound the impression that a general condition is being described (although I do comprehend that that part of the statement was about motive, not proportion)
Just for the sake of interest, I would really like to know how many or what proportion of Christians you really think are pretending to be peace loving because they can’t get away with murder. I won’t pretend I believe the number is zero, but I would like to know how significant you believe it to be.
I read “Moral Minds” by Marc Hauser over the summer. He seems convinced that there isn’t any difference between most people, regardless of religion, and that any differenes in opinion on things like abortion are superficial, culturally indoctrinated knee-jerk morality that don’t necessarily represent our intuitions. Here are his credentials, from his website:
[ul]
[li]Harvard College Professor [/li][li]Professor of Psychology, Organismic & Evolutionary Biology and Biological Anthropology[/li][li]Adjunct Professor, Graduate School of Education and Program in Neurosciences [/li][li]Co-Director, Mind, Brain and Behavior Program[/li][li]Fellow, Center for Ethics[/li][li]Director, Cognitive Evolution Lab[/li][/ul]
So accept his opinion or not, but either way I highly recommend reading the book. A few choice paragraphs:
This is my point. It is a belief and no different than a person who believes that God dictated a book to Mohammad. As I stated earlier, your beliefs help you and for you that is fine, but the people who disagree with you are also helped by their beliefs. Some are Hindus, Wiccans etc… Belief is not proof of anything. A man can believe his wife is faithful and in reality she is not, but he takes comfort in believiing she is.
Monavis
Thanks, I will look into it I was taught that the laws were from Hammurabi.
Monavis