My mechanic was giving me a ride home after my second dead battery in 2 weeks. He commented about how he was replacing 5 batteries a day due to the cold. I commented about how people in Alaska or Maine deal with the cold, and he mentioned that their cars are “acclimated” to the cold. Is this true, and if so, how?
When the extreme climate is more common, it has probably already taken out of service most vehicles that are susceptible to that type of problem.
If we’re talking about identical batteries, I think all he can really mean that batteries that are in constant cold will fail periodically but are not likely to all fail in the same week. In a warmer climate, there may be many batteries are that are on their last legs but can struggling so long as the conditions are relatively benign, but a cold snap will push them over the edge and make a bunch of them fail at the same time.
Or, he could be a car whisperer.
I’m guessing it’s because in places like Alaska or Maine, everyone has either a heated garage or an engine block warmer. Battery stays warmer and there’s not the stress of starting a (literally) ice-cold engine.
no. even if you make the claim about cars in an area which is cold year-round, the cars are still going to go through wide temperature ranges as the engine/transmission still run at normal operating temperature, and the interior is heated and left to cool down.
what tends to be true is that dealers in markets which have significant winters will order vehicles equipped from the factory with cold-weather aids like engine block heaters, battery minder hookups, auxiliary cabin heaters, and so on. my Ranger was originally sold in Canada (Quebec) and thankfully has a factory block heater.
if the cold is taking out your battery, then the battery was discharged. a fully charged lead acid battery’s electrolyte has a freeze point of about -70 to -80F. if it’s down to around 50% charge, the freeze point will be near 0F.
There’s also probably a human knowledge factor: The people in cold climes know that they can’t get away with leaving a battery half-charged, for instance.
Right. The cars aren’t acclimated, the people are acclimated.
I think you misunderstood. We don’t really have extremes here; -5C is considered really cold, but every winter, on the first cold snap, and especially if it comes in early January when many cars have been idle over the holidays, you can be sure that the AA?RAC will be rushed off their feet starting cars with failed batteries that will need to be replaced.
If you live in places where -5 is considered a mild day, then your car will indeed live indoors and you will probably have a bigger battery in the first place.
Batteries fail in the winter. That is when the stress on them is the greatest. The cold weather lowers the effective capacity of the battery, while it also increases the amount of power needed to start the engine.
In climates where extended cold weather is the norm, the batteries get replaced as soon as they show signs of age. In warmer climes, a battery that is marginal during a cold snap will work just fine when it warms up, so it doesn’t get replaced.
During the “break in” period of a car, usually about 500 miles (its in some manuals, not kidding), it allows expansion and contraction of metal parts as well as some shaving, seal and gasket conformity and adhesion to take place. Outside of this, or massive temperature changes (moving from Costa Rica to Greenland), its usually about how well the battery performs. Extreme cold climes require higher CCA (Cold Cranking Amp) batteries, and possibly a warmer to keep them from freezing. Engine warmers too, due to thermal shock/cracking risks on the engine (they are not typically constructed of flexible metal).
I suspect the mechanic was referencing that and in the theory that a car used to a warm climate suddenly introduced the extreme cold, may have issues (batteries are typically the issue) if the difference in temperature causes contraction of gaskets or seals, or hose diameter contract a little and allow fluid to escape or worm clamps not holding as tight. Given a car will ‘warm-up’ but not all parts will be the same temperature as they were accustomed to in the warmer clime. The engine and transmission and components in proximity will pretty much be in the same temperature zone, other parts will not. Cars let it a lot of air through the grill. This stuff can happen, but its rare. I think he just said that to get you out of the shop quicker/didn’t want to explain.
They definitely do not, at least in Maine. As many cars as don’t sit right in the driveway in New England, and most of us wouldn’t know where to buy an engine block warmer, let alone know how to use them. As I understand it, though, many of the batteries sold to us here are in some way more robust than in other places. They get labeled “heavy duty” and the like. Plus, we all know that you can’t let a car sit for days on end in cold weather without either driving it or running it for a while.
I had a BMW 323 (year 2000). Brand new, the first year I had several flat tires. A local tire store eventually found that the original German equipment did not include whatever goop they put on the rims to stick to the tires; so when it got to -40 the aluminum rims shrunk enough that the air leaked out and the rim started spinning in the tire. Once he applied this goop, I stopped having flat tires from the cold.
The battery problems - I had two older Honda Civics (85 and 90) and both had the problem typical with batteries - let the battery run down (forget the headlights) and after several of these full charge cycles, it stops holding enough charge to start the car in cold weather. If it gets too cold, then the electrolyte freezes, and the battery will not hold ANY charge. Of course, a battery loses a lot of its power at low temperatures, and a typical problem is if the car did not start - more common in the days before fuel injection - then you drained the battery trying and better get the car boosted and the battery charging before it freezes. Typical remedies in the Canadian north - battery blanket, a simple (approx. 80 watt) low power heater to help keep the battery warm. Of course, you also have to have a mixture of antifreeze in the coolant capable of handling the ambient temperatures.
This is separate from block heaters. My Hondas had block heaters. They heat the oil so that it flows well when the car starts running (oil pan heater); or they heat the coolant jacket to ensure the cylinders are warm and so fuel evaporates and the engine fires more easily. If the oil is too thick (say, 10W… instead of 5W…) then your engine may run for a minute or two with insufficient oil. Do this too often over a few years, and you need a major engine rebuild, particularly if you accelerate hard and run fast before the oil flows freely. My BMW’s did not have block heaters, but they specified synthetic oil which should run freely at any temperature.
My current 2014 BMW 328 has a plug to allow battery charging. In the dealership, they keep the car plugged in because with all the fancy electronics, the battery is used and over a few weeks in the showroom could completely drain. When it gets to the -25C range, it really does not like sitting outdoors all day. If I drive with seat heat and steering wheel heat it complains about battery being drained, but part of this is a symptom of reduced battery output in low temperatures. During serious cold spells, I plug it in overnight. Since it sits in a garage, it does not typically get round-the-clock exposure to bitter cold.
But what you probably see is poor battery maintenance. Old batteries had water caps and you could open them and refill any water lost (turned to hydrogen and oxygen) during recharge cycle. Modern sealed car batteries are not supposed to be typically deep discharged and recharged. What you see a lot of is poor battery maintenance. People abuse their batteries, and when it gets below freezing, the deteriorated battery cannot put out enough power in cold weather to start the car. Draining the battery further to try and get this happening will cause the situation where the discharged battery will freeze and be useless. Possibly, poor alternator or voltage regulator (once upon a time, they typical cause) meant the battery did not get a good enough charge with stop-and-go driving. Detroitmobiles of the 60’s and 70’s were notorious for needing fresh diodes on the alternator pretty regularly.
but generally, cars of today work just fine in anything from -40C to +40C, and don’t really suffer from prolonger exposure. the weakest link is the battery.
Bolding mine: Is this much of a problem in modern cars? Not challenging you, I really don’t know. It seems nowadays they all use lightweight (5-20) oil that wouldn’t resist the starter as much. My boat uses 25-40 crankcase oil, and 90 weight in the transmission*. On really cold days I can actually hear the difference as the starter strains to spin everything up. I don’t notice any difference in the cars though.
*Due to the way outdrives are constructed, almost everything spins even in neutral so the starter is cranking a lot of stuff.
There is no such goop. Tire beads actually have to be lubricated to ensure they seat properly when they’re being mounted on the rim. The tire bead seals itself against the rim automatically because of the air pressure, and the lube dries. Only R/C and serious bike tires are glued on.
There is such goop -bead sealer. I’m not sure that any manufacturers use it on new cars, but it exists and helps a lot of folks, especially with aluminum wheels, that can’t stop slow leaks that don’t show up with a water bubble test. Here’s an example:
The lubrication goes on the outside of the tire. The sealer goes on the inside.
The ironic thing is that it’s not cold that kills the battery but heat. Cite. The problem is that the weakened battery only is apparent when it’s under stress like a cold engine. As someone who has to start his car at -40 occasionally I can tell you that battery blankets, block heaters, circulation heaters, and heated garages are all very good things in addition to stuffing the highest cca battery that will fit in the battery box. Of course, if you forget to pull the battery blanket when it’s Summer, you end up putting 3 cups of water back into your Cherokee’s battery like I did one year, and replacing it that Fall.
Hmmm. I stand properly corrected.
I don’t know if there’s a metallurgical issue with the material of cylinders vs. engine block, that maybe the fit gets tighter in the cold. I knew one guy with an old Ford 302 engine rebuilt, and it was so stiff (pistons tight in cylinders) that it would NOT even turn in cold weather; the starter was not tight enough. There’s a whole host of factors - thickness of the oil determines more resistance in the oil pump. The cylinders are scraping off a much thicker syrup (thin film) of oil on the cylinder walls, stiff oil makes the bearings (on crankshaft, valves, etc.) stiffer too. But the main thing is the battery puts out much less power at lower temperatures and if it has been compromised in any way, the first cold snap will determine that it will not be able to start the car. Another point is that modern cars have electronics that may be running all the time, whether the engine is running or not. This drain over a few days in cold weather could deplete the battery if the car is left parked.
one thing I read about the old VM beetle was that the air cooled engines had much looser fit tolerances for the cylinders because air cooled engines experienced wider temperature range in operating. Hence, they required less power to crank and the famous 1960’s ads about “how the snow plough operator gets to his work” featuring VW were due to less cranking resistance in the cold. (Plus it floated, recalling the National Lampoon ad about “If Ted Kennedy had driven a Volkswagen he’s be president today…”)
OTOH, modern cars have electronic ignition and fuel injection. This means that the computer can inject the precise amount of gas needed to start the car, and spray it to get a good mix. Electronic ignition, given a not too small amount of electricity, can produce more than enough spark to fire that mix. So starting is much easier. Flooding is far less of a risk.
Yes, whatever the tire guy did, it made a huge difference at low temperatures.
[Emphasis added]
Sure, bead sealer exists, but I disagree that it (a) “helps a lot of folks” who drive passenger cars and (b) that aluminum wheels have some special need for bead sealer.
I checked out the reviews in your Amazon link, and most of the people praising bead sealer seem to use it on low-pressure, cheap tires that one might find on a wheelbarrow or maybe a lawnmower. I strongly suspect (but can’t really prove, either) that bead sealer is most often used for tire/wheel combinations with loose tolerances. Inexpensive pneumatic tires and inexpensive wheels (such as you might find on lawn equipment) have much looser tolerances than passenger car tires and wheels.
Modern automotive tire manufacturing is incredibly well-controlled; Q/A practices are really well-established. I’m not saying that Michelin doesn’t occasionally make tires that are out of spec; I’m suggesting that they catch nearly all the out-of-spec ones before they ship.
I don’t doubt that bead sealer is useful for some tires, but Really Not All That Bright is correct: car tires seal themselves against the rim using air pressure. If you need bead sealer on a modern aluminum wheel with a modern tire, even at temperatures of -40—is that Celsius or Fahrenheit? ;)—then you have a damaged bead on your tire or a damaged bead seat on your wheel/rim.
Anyone really serious about keeping a low-pressure-but-high-quality tire on a wheel (like off-road truck racers and rock crawlers) uses a mechanical bead lock to clamp the bead to the rim. When production motorcycles first started using cast aluminum wheels, it was not uncommon for them to use bead locks as well. But as wheel tolerances improved, this practice has fallen by the wayside.
It’s true that aluminum has a relatively high coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) as metals go, so an aluminum wheel shrinks infinitesimally more in the cold than a steel wheel does. However, modern car tires are made primarily of rubber and nylon cords, both of which have a coefficient of thermal expansion approximately four times greater than that of aluminum. So the aluminum may shrink a little in the cold, but the rubber and nylon surrounding the aluminum shrink a lot more.
Tire construction is pretty complex, and of course, most automotive tires contain steel in the bead, which is the part that grips the rim. (The steel belts don’t do what you might think they do, and they don’t come into play here). Steel’s CTE is only about half of aluminum’s, so the aluminum wheel shrinks infinitesimally more in the cold than the bead does. However, the bead shrinks more than steel’s CTE alone suggests because the rubber and nylon, which shrink a lot, exert large shear forces on the steel bead, shrinking it a bit.
The structural dynamics of pneumatic tires are both extremely complicated and fairly counterintuitive. (Did you know that bias-ply tire beads, including those of all bicycle tires, actually shrink when the tire is inflated, grabbing the rim more tightly?)
To truly understand the behavior of a car tire mounted to an aluminum rim in cold weather, you need to model it in very fancy finite element analysis (FEA) software; ABAQUS is what most tire manufacturers use. Elastomers such as rubber exhibit all kinds of crazy nonlinearities, making them very hard to model properly.
In reality, there’s enough “give” in the tire’s bead-sealing-flap to accommodate the thermal effects of the tire/wheel system, even down to cold temperatures. I don’t know exactly why md2000’s BMW kept getting flats, but it wasn’t because his aluminum wheels shrank too much or because a BMW employee forgot to glue his tires on.
I don’t doubt, however, that the tire guy solved md2000’s problem—whatever it was—with bead lock.
P.S. and FWIW: many serious cyclists now ride tubeless tires, using something broadly similar to bead lock (just called “tire sealant”) to prevent air from leaking out under the bead or through pinholes in the casing. Tubeless bike tires often seal well without any sealant, but most people add liquid sealant anyway because it will clog a puncture in much the same way that platelets stop a cut from bleeding.
bead sealer is a band-aid for a wheel which is pitted/corroded on the bead seating surface. it is not necessary when the tire and wheel are in good condition.