How do I handle this? (marriage problems)

In My Humble Opinion
41

Thank you very much Triss and White Ink for your very thoughtful and honest posts.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Triss, regarding the fact that she might be afraid to be totally honest with me. And I have probably done the subtle punishment thing, too, but for me it is more of a cold shoulder approach.

I am going to try to make it very clear that I want her just to be honest about her feelings with me and tell me whatever it is she is feeling without trying to justify it with the facts. Because I think when she tries to “speak my language” and argue the facts that is where we run into major trouble. Since her primary focus is not the facts, the facts get jumbled to suit her feelings and then we get into a fight over the facts and she feels totally unsatisfied. It’s like if I was debating a Frenchman, and I was trying to speak French to make it easier on him, and then he started criticizing my grammar and vocabulary. (and I realize not ALL women focus on emotions over facts, but my wife is definitely one that does)

And White Ink, I agree there might have been more going on beneath the surface than I realized. She might have been feeling tentative about sex even before she got into bed, when we were “hinting around” it all night.

Some of our interactions sure seemed pretty mutual to me, though! I didn’t include everything because in my OP I was focusing on the things that I said in order to make it clear that there was no way I could have meant anything other than sex. In fact, right after my “practice making babies” comment, we enjoyed a nice long body hug and then I said something like, “So, do you want to go upstairs for some cuddle time right now?” And she replied, “Mmmmmmmm (mmm like yummy)… that sounds really good. I really want to… but, I feel like I have so much to do. Tell you what, you go workout for 40 minutes or so, then when you come back, I’ll be ready for you.”

When I got back, we talked for a while, then I took a shower, then out came the curtains. So I really had no way of knowing that she was feeling uneasy about the sex thing all night, if that was even the case.

42

dil you have my sympathy…I understand EXACTLY what you are saying

I had the same problem with an EX…except it was almost exactly opposite to the situation you describe

I’d come home from work and we’d tell each other our days and she’d say she went to the gym and was sore all over and had a blinding headache so I would make a mental note “no sex tonight” …we’d do our everyday things go to bed and AFTER I was soundly asleep she’d nudge me awake and say why didn’t I try to have sex this night?

I’d say you told me you had a headache and were sore so I being such a prince didn’t want to bug you for sex when it seemed apparent you were not in the mood

OK very rational right?

Not according to HER…you see what I should of done is tried anyway and then if she wasn’t in the mood she could let me know THEN(this lady never had a problem with saying NO)

Somehow I am supposed to be Karnak and know there are times when a headache means no sex and when it doesn’t mean that and God forbid she give a clue to help me tell them apart

In case you think it was just sexual areas this type of thing came up…there were times I wanted to go somewhere with her or do something with her and she’d give me several reasons why it wasn’t something we ought to do so I put it out of my mind THEN she’d pop in later and ask why we were not going there or doing that because she REALLY wanted to do it

Repeating the earlier conversation where she said the exact opposite was totally useless since she would deny deny deny

ARGH

43

My wife just says, “No chance, buddy.” No way to mistake that for “Sure, just go work out for two hours and hopefully you’ll be dead tired or maybe you’ll fall off the treadmill and break your neck and I won’t have to keep rejecting your fumbling advances.”

I like my wife.

44

quote by isthatsowrong:

My 2 cents: Yes, and yes. Isthatsowrong wrapped that up in one neat little package. Isthatsowrong, have you considered counseling as a career? Giving, not receiving- because I just wanted to commend you on your observation. I agree with your take completely.

I know many people, male and female, who want to avoid confrontation and conflict and consquently (accidently) make a real mess miscommunicating thier intent.

First and foremost she loves you, wants to make you happy, but her body declines the invitation, then her mouth runs interference.

(And Calliope, you said the same thing, you sweet girl, offering yourself up selflessly like that. I didn’t think any women would want to stand in this forum and bare their insides. You are a righteous babe)

45

Hmmmmmm, as another woman (you’re not so “lone” now:D) I have to say I SORTA agree with Bruce Daddy here.

The trouble with that is that my boyfriend isn’t happy unless he’s giving me my usual dozen or more “Os”. Otherwise, on those nights when I’m sleepy, and he’s horny, I’d be happy just saying “do you mind if I just lie here”?? Could something similar be true with you and your wife?

That is, that she doesn’t really feel free to just “have sex” or a quickie without it having to be a record breaking orgasm fest or requiring a lot of energy on her part?

One thing in the OP stood out to me though (paraphrased) “can’t we just get naked and cuddle”?

Um, “Get” naked. Why aren’t you alREADY naked???

Anyway, if it helps any, her “convincing herself of a nontruth” may have been just an “I don’t want get in trouble with him for being too sleepy”. Being a woman (and of course I can’t speak for all women) it sounds as if she was trying to stall, hoping that you’d be too tired to have sex too, but she didn’t want to come right out and turn you down for fear of disappointing you, or “getting into a hassle” (which yes, seems silly as you ended up staying up ANYWAY to argue it out).

Anyway, it sounds as if she doesn’t feel comfortable turning you down, for whatever reason. At a time when you two AREN’T bound for bed and are on neutral territory, maybe you could discuss it with her, and as someone else suggested, figure out some clear language by which you can both know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the intentions are.

That way she can’t “fool herself” or try to fool you.

Good luck!!!

46

Very well stated.

It sounds to me like dil’s wife was trying to be non-confrontational (which is ironic, since it lead to a 1.5 hour argument). Non-confrontational people often have ideas of what constitute acceptable and unacceptable reasons for doing things which are hard for people who prefer more direct interactions to understand. When faced with the statement: “I thought you were interested in having sex tonight”, saying “I never said that” seemed like a much more valid defense than saying “I know and I’m sorry you got your hopes up, but I’m just not in the mood right now.”

If you make a big deal out of the inconsistency, it’s unlikely to fix the problem. In my experience, the best thing you can do what DanielWithrow suggested: explain why you thought what you did and suggest ways to prevent similar situations in the future. The key is not to try to teach her how to communicate like you do, but rather to let her know where you’re coming from so she’ll see how her words are coming across.

Lastly, in my experience, I find dropping multiple hints in advance to be a bad idea when it comes to sex. Let her know you’re interested (e.g. “I was thinking we should go to bed early tonight ::eyebrow waggle::”) to put the thought in her head, but then drop it until you actually want to initiate something. Because moods can change so much over time, trying to make a reservation often leads to either pressure or disappointment.

47

I have been told that I would make a good counselor but I haven’t pursued it. Anyway, dil doesn’t think I’m so great. And I guess a good counselor wouldn’t say “You’re crazy. Shut up and pay the receptionist on the way out.”

48

I wholeheartedly agree with the pre-menstrual thing. I can’t think of a single thing that makes me feel less sexy than that. Your body hurts, your head aches, bloated, crampy, miserable.

There’s another option, that some posters touched on. Perhaps she kinda felt like sex in the beginning, but for some reason, she changed her mind. However, she’d already told you that she wanted sex, so she had a situation on her hands.

Giving your wife the cold shoulder when she doesn’t want sex isn’t particularly fair. I’m not judging you, I’m not in your relationship and don’t have any facts past what you have told us. But you should seriously reconsider this. For women, it’s a form of rejection, the same that you feel when we say No Sex tonight! This says to us that we are only worthy of your affection if we put out. Notice that I didn’t say you felt that way, it’s just the way that women percieve things.

I heard someone say something once, and when I thought about it, it made perfect sense.

A man needs sex to be able to “give” emotionally. A woman needs emotional contact to be able to “give” sexually.

That’s not the exact quote, but I hope my point comes across. A woman (in a serious long term relationship) needs to know that you care about her, even if she doesn’t want sex.

Miscommunication is a big factor in a lot of relationships, I’m afraid. Be sure you are clear in what you want from her, and hopefully she will do the same with her.

And don’t discuss things in the middle of the night if it’s not absolutely necessary. Talk about things in the day, with both of you dressed, and focused on each other.

~J

49

Is there any possibility she has had some trauma associated with sex, not necessarily rape or molestation? That line when you said you could see it change in a second in her eyes tells me something clicked just then. And that denial/alternate reality tactic could be a defensive measure?

Sorry to dampen the thread.

50

It sounds like assertiveness skills would help Mrs. dil. There are books you can read and classes you can take, but the skills are learned by practice over time. The gist of it is, though, that you learn appropriate and fair ways to express your feelings and needs. Manipulative stuff like what happened in the OP can be a result of not being familiar with the right words to fairly express yourself.

dil, you might be doing your wife a great favor if you can help her build these skills. It won’t just help with you, but with friends, family, and work, also. Does she do this “reality-shifting” with people other than you? One way to open the subject with her would be to role-play assertive communication with others (neighbors, children, coworkers) so she gets the hang of being fair but firm.

51

I opened this thread specifically to tell Harriet the Spry that you have one of the best usernames I’ve ever seen. Seriously, it’s fantastic!

And while I’m here, I sort of disagree with you – although learning to be direct and assertive would undoubtably be very good for dil’s wife, he should also avoid trying to assume the role of “fixer”. Some people are just non-confrontational by nature, and it’s better to work out ways to communicate that you’re both comfortable with than to try to teach them the “right” way to do it. Now, if it’s something she ever says she wishes she could change or if it is causing problems in other areas of her life, he should absolutely encourage her to learn more about changing those habits.

52

Thanks, Giraffe!

I don’t really disagree with you. My husband and I do a fair amount of “coaching” each other, but that definitely hasn’t been a part of every relationship I’ve ever had. Still, it seems like there’s a pretty good chance dil’s wife isn’t like this just with him, since he talks about this happening on several occasions & topics. But no, dil can’t make her change, she has to want to change.

53

I’m afraid I can’t help here because my husband and I have perfect communication and a perfect sex life and I feel secure enough to say that when I’m pretty sure he’ll never find this thread. Sorry, ivylass, you’re on your own. I’ve got laundry to do.

:smiley:

54

Brushes Self off

Thinks to self:*Geez! I was just playing around. I didn’t know they had a rear seat ejector button. My wifes going to kill me for coming home a day late. I’m dead. Thanks a lot guys! You broke my cell phone. Thats the last time I play with you! MMM! *

55

I loved this thread, just for the sub plot with Auntie Em, Phlosphr, and ivylass… Without that, I would have read the OP and moved on…

I really don’t have anything to add. It’s been so long since I’ve been in a relationship, I can’t remember if I do any of those wishy-washy chick behaviors. Does sound like the OP’s SO needs to learn how to say No without feeling guilty about it.

Here’s my contribution: I’m going to go walk around the office and tell all the men who Do NOT want to have sex with me, “no.” Just for practice. In case I ever have a boyfriend again, I’ll be ready with direct responses.

56

I think you’ve discovered, rather painfully, one of the nuiances of marriage. She may subconsciously hope that you can sort of read her mind, read between the lines, and understand what she feels without having to actually explain the whole thing.

IMHO, men take a different track (but by no means all men). They are more straightforward. If a guy wants to skip a night for sex, he usually just says so right up front.

So its the difference between being subtle and obvious. To us men, being anything other than plainly obvious makes no sense. To some women, laying it all out there is much harder than being round-a-bout and indirect. Just don’t ask me why, there are limits to even my perceptive powers. :wink:

57

I don’t think there’s any alternate reality here at all, just alternate perceptions of the same reality. I’m gonna play armchair psychic for a bit here and explain how I think the OP’s wife probably views this little incident.

Early in the evening, he starts talking about how long it’s been since they’ve fooled around, and how he really wants to go fool around later. She agrees that yes, it has been a while since they’ve fooled around, and that fooling around is nice. She’d like to fool around, and maybe even have sex sometime. She doesn’t clarify it as sometime when she’s in the mood because that part seems so obvious that she’s not going to insult his intelligence by mentioning it.

She mentions that her period starts soon, which she takes as a pretty obvious way of saying that she feels bloated and crampy and achy all over and isn’t exactly frothing at the mouth to get going with the ol’ bouncy-bouncy pokey-pokey. It also gives her an excuse not to get sexual without him pouting about getting turned down. He, however, takes this to mean, “Oooh, I better get it now, now, now while I can.” He even comments on how they’d better hurry up and go do it.

So now, he’s got expectation of getting laid, and he keeps making comments about how they’d better go have sex. She might be able to get in the mood, but not with him leering and making comments all the time, because that makes her feel pressured. And there’s nothing in the world less arousing than feeling pressured into having sex.

So she ditches him for a while to try to get her head in the game, so to speak. It doesn’t work, and here he is again. So she shows him what she bought today, giving herself some time and space to spend time with him without all the damn “But why aren’t we having sex noooooowwww?” crap. “But it’s late, and if I take an interest in what you’ve been working on, I won’t get laid!” (That might not have been his exact words, but she knows that’s what he meant.)

So they go to bed, and he starts trying to put the moves on her. She tells him she’s really not in the mood to have sex. He suggests “at least” cuddling and getting naked. She takes this to mean “Oh, let me pretend I just want to be close to you so I can grope you and then keep pressuring you into doing just a little more and a little more until I get what I want.” She declines, explaining why. So then he’s pissed.

And then she feels it. That last tiny spark of potential arousal is gone, not be rekindled. There is absolutely no hope in heaven or hell of her getting horny tonight, and now she’s got to deal with his anger and disappointment, not to mention the pouting she’ll have to put up with for the next day or two.

She tries to divert him and make him think he didn’t get turned down for sex, because he never explicitly asked for sex. Fooling around, yes, Alone time, yes. But not sex. And so the argument starts. After an hour and a half, she just tells him whatever the hell will shut him the fuck up and get him off her back so she can get some sleep.

I may be completely wrong here, but I rather doubt it. The OP admits to making comments that could be sexy to someone who’s already horny, but if you’re not horny yet they sound like “Who gives a fuck if you’re horny? I want sex now.” In other words, they sound like a demand for sex. That kind of stuff is on a level with picturing your mother naked for stamping out the sex drive.

58

CCL, boy did you pin THAT one down, and as usual in a really good play by play of what goes on in a lot of women’s heads.

59

Solution, the one and only solution!

Forget about it, dont get stressed, go to sleep.

Welcome to the wacky world of hormones.