How do I know if I'm a "Milton"?

[TruCelt]

There are two different modes here 1) getting more advanced/innovative tech work and 2) getting into management. I think you need to be clear about which you are looking for. A few questions that may lead you in a better direction:

to achieve 1) You have to be socializing with the folks in your company who do that work. Technical innovation happens in teams these days.

• Who is on the team you’d like to join?
• What would be their reasons for wanting to work with you? (Hint: “Reliable” is assumed, what else have you got?)
• What could you do to show that you are an innovative problem-solver, rather than just a maintainer of the status quo?
• What classes or certifications exist that would allow you to prove you are capable in different areas? (Groupon has GREAT pricing on various cert. prep and programming classes.)

to achieve 2) You need to show that you are ready to take a wider view.

• How does your work affect the company’s bottom line?
• Are there annual meetings in which the corporate ROI numbres are reviewed? Do you take an interest?
• As the CEO reads off the results is yours one of the bright, interested faces she sees? Does she look forward to your insightful questions?

[msmith537]

A first question is what do you want to be promoted to? Do you just want more pay and a better title, or do you actually want a job with more responsibility? Do you want to lead groups of people? Be a subject matter expert? Manage projects? Run P&L for an entire department?

What is the path to promotion for your role in your company? If you can’t answer that, it may be they don’t have one and the expectation is you sit there for 20 years doing the same job until you quit or retire.

Have you discussed this with your boss?

Do you do anything besides your actual job?

At your current level, do you exhibit leadership among your peers? Management is about leading people.

Do you have the right credentials to become “management”. I knew fairly early on that I wasn’t going to code my way to the top. I went and got an MBA and later a PMP project management cert.
One problem I’ve witnessed (and experienced) is that technical resources tend to get viewed as useful cogs to be tolerated. Not the sort of people executives get excited about fast-tracking. That is to say, they get stuck doing a job and never get an opportunity to do anything else.

[ExTank]

I read the OP, and wondered if I have a long-lost identical twin. I could’ve written that OP.

[JcWoman]

@msmith537

A first question is what do you want to be promoted to? Do you just want more pay and a better title, or do you actually want a job with more responsibility? Do you want to lead groups of people? Be a subject matter expert? Manage projects? Run P&L for an entire department?

What is the path to promotion for your role in your company? If you can’t answer that, it may be they don’t have one and the expectation is you sit there for 20 years doing the same job until you quit or retire.

Have you discussed this with your boss?

Do you do anything besides your actual job?

At your current level, do you exhibit leadership among your peers? Management is about leading people.

Do you have the right credentials to become “management”. I knew fairly early on that I wasn’t going to code my way to the top. I went and got an MBA and later a PMP project management cert.
One problem I’ve witnessed (and experienced) is that technical resources tend to get viewed as useful cogs to be tolerated. Not the sort of people executives get excited about fast-tracking. That is to say, they get stuck doing a job and never get an opportunity to do anything else.

Good questions, and actually great discussion, thanks everyone!

I think this all came about because I got assigned to a team (the dysfunctional one that I mentioned) that I’m not qualified to work on and haven’t been able to get myself off of it. I felt sidelined and under-utilized. Not qualified for the team, but the skills and talents I do have are unused. If I was interviewing for the job they’d never hire me, which is ironic because I can’t seem to get off the team. I don’t actually want to be promoted, I just want to work to my capacity, use my skills and learn new ones. The manager of the dysfunctional team hasn’t been at all helpful, and yes I discussed this with her. My training ideas were dismissed as were my concerns that I’m a bad fit for the team. In fact, just before I brought all these concerns to her, she promoted me (rank increase), so we clearly don’t see eye to eye.

And just in general at this company I’ve noticed that even though I mention that I have past experience with things like project management and business analysis best practices, I’m always excluded when they start forming teams to implement these things. By the time I realize they’re doing these things, I speak up and they’re like “oh, we already have the team we need, thxbye”.

On the other hand, the new team that I’m matrixed to has work that I am qualified to do and utilizes me better. So that’s a positive note. I work at a senior analyst level on that team, demonstrating team-lead skills and professionalism. If I stay with this company, I think I need to change the “matrix” report to a “solid line” report to that team. I’ve decided (this week) that’s what I’m going to work toward here, in order to learn and grow. The challenge with this team, though, is that the manager’s are micro-managery… but I know how to handle that. It’s not great, but better than stagnating with the dysfunctional team.

[Sage_Rat]

One alternative would be that, simply, when you were younger and more feisty, sexism kept you from being promotable. Now that women can be promoted, everyone’s gotten too used to the status quo with you.

Have you asked your manager what you need to do to get promoted?

[JcWoman]

Sort of. I asked her what I needed to do to succeed/do well on the dysfunctional team. She sort of mushmouthed some vagarities but the gist that I got was that I just needed to become comfortable with long-term consensus building. Long term can mean several years.

I do have some sense of company politics and I don’t feel that this manager herself is going anywhere upward. In fact, my sense is that the team is going to be dismantled in the next year or two.

After I’m more firmly settled into the non-dysfunctional team, I’ll ask THAT manager what I can do to get more responsibility or be promoted. This manager has excellent political clout and is on an upward trajectory. Impressively, she’s managed change a small group of reports into a full branch of the org chart under herself!

[you_with_the_face]

Some good points have been made in this thread.

There are a couple people in my team that are itching for promotions but will struggle to get there. Why? Because they have habits that mark them as a follower rather than a leader.

They say stuff to me like “What should I emphasize in this presentation?” Instead of saying " I plan to emphasize this and this; let me know if you object or have anything to add."

They don’t communicate in a way that helps their boss reach decisions. For instance, they will send up a spreadsheet with a bunch of data and ask whether a proposed option is acceptable. They don’t think to provide a summary or a description of pros and cons, without being told to do so. In other words, they fail to put themselves in their boss’s shoes.

They get hung up on small things. Can’t count the number of times I’ve sent a document around for review and get a bunch of wordsmithing and grammar naziing back, while technical content is ignored. Every time I see this, it makes me question whether someone has what it takes to see what’s most important.

The thing is, unless you ask for negative feedback, it is unlikely your boss will tell you that you’re doing these kind of things. Even in aggregate, they aren’t enough to make someone a bad employee. But they can make your boss less likely to view you as a super star.

[MandaJo]

That’s a good list. I’ll add one more: they work 40 hours a week and it’s clear that that is all they are willing to do. It’s true that an efficient person can do more in 40 than a slacker brown-noser can get done in 60. But an efficient person who works 50 hours a week can get done with more than either. Even if a job doesn’t require overtime all the time, it’s a huge red flag when you feel like someone won’t be willing to put in the hours in a crunch.

The best “aesthetic” here is someone who works a lot because they are interested and committed, not because they have a bunch of bullshit they accumulated, or because they can’t manage their time.

[Athena]

All good advice here. One thing I haven’t seen mentioned that might get you some answers is to reach out beyond your direct team. You mentioned you don’t feel your manager(s) are doing much to promote you, and indeed may not be in the company’s good graces themselves. Do you have enough of a relationship with someone in your company but outside your line of leaderhip who might be willing to give you some honest advice and mentorship? It’s often easier for someone who is not in a decision making position to give someone feedback.

[JcWoman]

That’s a good thought, Athena. There’s been some talk of extending the 360-degree review process to all employees (it’s just managers right now). If they do that, it’s a perfect way to reach out to various coworkers.

Even if they don’t implement that, I’m strongly considering make up some kind of short “please review me” survey to hand out to a few coworkers. Someone did that last year and I quite liked having the opportunity to give her feedback. The only trick there is the feedback won’t be anonymous, like for a company-operated 360.

[StGermain]

@JcWoman

That’s a good thought, Athena. There’s been some talk of extending the 360-degree review process to all employees (it’s just managers right now). If they do that, it’s a perfect way to reach out to various coworkers.

Even if they don’t implement that, I’m strongly considering make up some kind of short “please review me” survey to hand out to a few coworkers. Someone did that last year and I quite liked having the opportunity to give her feedback. The only trick there is the feedback won’t be anonymous, like for a company-operated 360.

It could be anonymous if you created the document, emailed it to them, they completed and printed it and put it on your desk.

StG

[JcWoman]

Ah! Thank you, that was so obvious that I missed it. :smack:

[vtxrider]

I guess I find a lot in common with your story.

I just completed 23 years with the same company. While I have had “promotions”, I have not changed classifications or moved jobs in at least 10 yrs.

I have been working on one project for 17.5 yrs.

When I started with the company, I was called a specialist (non-management) and was working in the marketing department. I was the only technology person, so everyone came to me. After a year and a half, I got promoted but mainly because a contractor I was working with quit because they were not paying him enough and they were afraid of losing me.

After another year, I moved to the marketing information group, there I was one of many tech people, so I was not so “special”. I made a couple of moves, but was put on a project to improve some guys antiquated process (move from Access to SQL Server for the build), but then when they decided to build the web version, they gave it to a contractor and another employee. I was needed to keep working on the existing process (legacy).

When they got ready to release the web version, they did, and they turned it over to me to maintain. I had to re-write lots of it because it sucked. I have maintained that legacy code since then (the 17.5 yr project).

I have developed some new stuff over the years, but honestly the last new thing I developed was over 10 yrs ago. I basically maintain other people’s stuff or stuff I wrote more than 10 yrs ago.

I pointed out about a year ago that I was qualified for a manager job that had been vacated and I had no option to interview for (it was filled before I knew it was available), they seemed shocked that I was interested. A manager spot came open in another group so they recommended me (but said they would hate to see me go). I did not get that job (I do not believe I was torpedoed, but that the hiring guy found me too old, I am 47). So I have sort of settled back into my regular routine.

I could leave my company, but I get full retirement in 8 more years. I would be giving up a lot to leave and honestly I am not sure I want the hassles of a new job.

I am good at what I do. I do wonder if I would have reasonable skills at other places (I am a database analyst using SQL Server). But I know the guys I work with, I work well with them. I can work from home a couple of days a week and I make pretty good money doing what I do.

I might be a Milton, but at 55 I can retire and live at the beach (ok, maybe not at the beach, but it would be a decent retirement).

I guess for me, being comfortable in being Milton is a good thing.

My word for you is, it may not be that people don’t like you. But IIRC, like you, I do not hang out with my fellow co-workers/managers, I just do my job and do it well, but don’t rock the boat. So, since everyone cannot be promoted, keep me relatively happy doing what I do, and try to appease the ones that push to be promoted (most end up wishing they had not been promoted, it is a lot of extra hassle for very little extra money).

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@JcWoman

Even if they don’t implement that, I’m strongly considering make up some kind of short “please review me” survey to hand out to a few coworkers. Someone did that last year and I quite liked having the opportunity to give her feedback. The only trick there is the feedback won’t be anonymous, like for a company-operated 360.

I would caution here that you don’t want to come off as a loser in doing this - that will not help you get promoted. So you need to be careful that the message which comes across is that you’re always looking to improve yourself etc. and are looking for feedback for this reason, not that you’re never getting promoted and are wondering what’s wrong with you.

[Nava]

@kiz

I was once told I didn’t have the personality for management. It was never explained to me. Given how I witnessed how other managers behaved, I could understand that.

I later realized that part of it was because I never made waves and I was very competent at doing grunt work. I was “Employee Of The Month” several times. And yes, I was “Old Faithful” to a fault.

Management didn’t want to promote me because they knew they’d never find somebody else like me to do the work I was doing. My lack of ego had a lot to do with that.

On several occasions I’ve surprised people who knew I was good at following orders(1), when I got to be in charge of something and turned out to be damn good at managing what looked to them like a herd of rabid cats. From my point of view, the best subordinates tend to be the ones who also make good managers (they understand both positions), but many people think the two are incompatible. They think anybody who doesn’t automatically vie for the alpha positions will be uncapable of holding them. And they’re a big part of the reason why it’s so hard to have good middle managers: those have to be subordinate and manager at the same time!
1: they’d evidently never noticed I’m only good at following those orders I agree with. But I learned a long time ago that arguing over stupidity is a lot more work and works worse than merely ignoring it, so they mistake my lack of complaint with acquiescence.

[kiz]

@Nava

From my point of view, the best subordinates tend to be the ones who also make good managers (they understand both positions), but many people think the two are incompatible. They think anybody who doesn’t automatically vie for the alpha positions will be uncapable of holding them. And they’re a big part of the reason why it’s so hard to have good middle managers: those have to be subordinate and manager at the same time!

I think this is my greatest strength when it comes to management. Unfortunately TPTB don’t always think the same – they want the alpha front and center in my field because it’s the alpha who will get the sales. When the alpha falters (I’ve seen this more than once), TPTB suddenly does the OH NOESSSSS thing with the fluttering hands but never once looks at the rest of the crew for a possible replacement. Why? Because they don’t consider them alphas. Rinse and repeat.

…so they mistake my lack of complaint with acquiescence.

I’ve run into this too. Most of the time it’s because I deplore workplace political bullshit so I just keep my head down.

[JcWoman]

@vtxrider

I guess for me, being comfortable in being Milton is a good thing.

My word for you is, it may not be that people don’t like you. But IIRC, like you, I do not hang out with my fellow co-workers/managers, I just do my job and do it well, but don’t rock the boat. So, since everyone cannot be promoted, keep me relatively happy doing what I do, and try to appease the ones that push to be promoted (most end up wishing they had not been promoted, it is a lot of extra hassle for very little extra money).

This is a good post but I think I want to make a distinction. The Milton reference I was using was more about someone who people just generally don’t like but are too polite to say so. In the movie, nobody comes right out (even politely or tactfully) to tell him he’s been laid off or sidelined. They just kind of nitpick his work and do petty things like taking his stapler. Bully stuff. He’s got -1000 charisma level, to use DnD terms. Sometimes I wonder if I’m similar based on odd and inconsistent ways that people respond to me. I don’t feel bullied at work, but just… ignored or overlooked a lot. That could be because people don’t like me, or it could be just that I’m forgettable, or it could be that they all think I’m rocking it out with what I’m doing and don’t want me to do anything different. So I’m just wondering if I could tease out some hints as to which of those are the case with me.

@Nava

On several occasions I’ve surprised people who knew I was good at following orders(1), when I got to be in charge of something and turned out to be damn good at managing what looked to them like a herd of rabid cats. From my point of view, the best subordinates tend to be the ones who also make good managers (they understand both positions), but many people think the two are incompatible. They think anybody who doesn’t automatically vie for the alpha positions will be uncapable of holding them. And they’re a big part of the reason why it’s so hard to have good middle managers: those have to be subordinate and manager at the same time!

That’s a really salient point. I have often mentored new coworkers and been praised for the results. Most often, the coworkers who I mentor openly praise me for being so open about sharing information and helping them succeed. So I have it in me to be a good manager. But for whatever reason, the managers I’ve had never offer me the chance to try management on a formal basis. Maybe it’s because of this that you’ve pointed out. I do tend to have more “follower” behaviors and am more comfortable as a follower. Taking the lead on things stretches me, and although I’ve proven that I’m very capable of doing that, maybe I don’t do it on a consistent enough basis. Moreover, when you put someone with a strong personality in a room with me, I almost always defer to that person. (Unless I completely disagree with them, then I challenge them.)

[Nava]

Does “a strong personality” mean “a tendency to cut people off”? Because that seems to be a trait that impresses many people, but I don’t see where is the leadership in Not Listening. I can be a total hatchet about “Not Now” when the roof is coming down, but when we’re having a meeting is specifically the time to talk.

[msmith537]

@JcWoman

Even if they don’t implement that, I’m strongly considering make up some kind of short “please review me” survey to hand out to a few coworkers. Someone did that last year and I quite liked having the opportunity to give her feedback. The only trick there is the feedback won’t be anonymous, like for a company-operated 360.

Please don’t do that. At best your coworkers will ignore it and think you are a desperate weirdo. It’s better you speak honestly and directly with a few trusted coworkers. After that, then speak with your direct manager.

@Nava

Does “a strong personality” mean “a tendency to cut people off”? Because that seems to be a trait that impresses many people, but I don’t see where is the leadership in Not Listening. I can be a total hatchet about “Not Now” when the roof is coming down, but when we’re having a meeting is specifically the time to talk.

No, being a jerk is not the hallmark of a good manager.

From my experience, a lot if it is just having “executive presence”. I joke sometimes that I don’t really “do” anything, except “be impressive” (but approachable). But you can’t be intimidating to upper management. They don’t want people who make them look like the idiots they often are.

[Nava]

@msmith537

No, being a jerk is not the hallmark of a good manager.

As I said myself, I’ve never seen it as part of being a good manager, quite the opposite. But often the dude who doesn’t let others talk is the one who’s seen as “proactive” and “having a leadership profile” and so the one who gets promoted, or the one who gets the plum assignments despite having failed several prior ones. Not being loud enough can be a problem, depending on who the people deciding who’ll get promoted is.

Being a leader, being a manager and getting given the title are three different things.