Opinions wanted [work situation]

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have applied for internal promotions and lateral moves 9 times in 2.5 years, and never gotten them. I keep getting what I call the “Coward Letter” dropped on my desk. You know, the one that says you didn’t get the job and allegedly tells you why, because they’re “too busy” to talk to you face to face.

Only the reasons I’m being told are outright insulting lies (telling a guy with an extensive IT background that he doesn’t know enough about databases, for one example, then hiring a 20 year old kid with no DB experience), or they’re so vague as to be non-explanations. Or they tell me to sign up for internal management classes that I am then turned down for (despite multiple supervisors telling me that I am more qualified than some of the people they do take). I have repeatedly asked to discuss these things at the various times I’ve been turned down, and I’m told they’ll talk to me in a couple of days, but it never happens. Last time I was interviewed for a supervisor position, I asked FOUR TIMES to discuss what they meant when they said that I didn’t know enough about being a supervisor (despite supervisory experience on two previous jobs) and what I could do to improve myself for the next opportunity. Each time I was told I’d be talked to in a couple of days, and it didn’t happen.

One of the things I see is that I’m 49 years old in a company full of 20-25 year olds, with a Director who is only 30. This has been a regular topic of conversation among the other older people that come and go from this place, because they don’t get opportunities either.

I also think that I intimidate the Diretor, as his management style is “Jump in people’s faces and scream at them” and he knows I an not intimidated by this kind of unprofessional conduct. I’ve been through a fucking lot in life, and I don’t bow before screaming assholes. As far as that goes, I was told in passing by someone who would say no further, that the Director turned down my latest attempt because he was worried about what I would do if he did jump in my face and scream at me. On one side, that’s kinda funny, on the other, it’s worrisome.

But the bottom line here is that I am really bothered by the fact that I cannot get a straight and honest answer to why I am not being seriously considered for these positions, or what they want to see out of me in order for me to advance. I feel insulted that they’re not even giving me a basic level of respect and human dignity here, and I honestly feel that they’re not being very professional about it.

I have asked my ops manager to meet with me to discuss it and come up with some kind of action plan on both our parts, but he pushed it off until after the new year, which fits right in with past patterns of “let’s talk about this tomorrow(when we won’t discuss it)”.

I’m at a loss. Other than quitting*, what can I do here? I know HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND and I would expect no help there. There is only one level of management above the Director at this location, and I would expect no help there either.

Clues? Suggestions? Anything?

  • Easy for you to say, but not so easy to do in this economy. And to be honest, one of the reasons I have remained for so long is because I’d had 4 jobs in 4 years before that, and no jobs for a few years before that, so I wanted to have a longer term job on my resume before looking again. That and I fucking HATE looking for a job.
2

Well, I’m telling you something you already know, the company really doesn’t want to promote you. You need to either change companies or get upper management to give you a shot at a new job.

I don’t have hard evidence but it sure does appear that there is a bias to mentor/promote/give opportunities to 30 something instead of 40 somethings and certainly not 50 somethings (unless you are on the annointed path).

3

sounds like age discrimination to me, if you are relaying the whole story (and I have no reason not to believe you).

I think the only other option would be to try and apply to other jobs and see if you get any offers, and then try to leverage that with your current company into a promotion. If they don’t go for it, at least you have the other offer you can take.

4

I guess what I’m really after is an honest answer rather than a non-answer from management. I guess my next conversation with the ops manager (the only one of the management troika I respect) I’m going to have to say “Barring an honest explanation of why I am not being considered, I am going to have to assume that the reasons are either incredibly petty or outright illegal, and act accordingly”.

But yeah, comes down to (very probably) two or more of the following;
1> Director just doesn’t like me.
2> Director is afraid of me (see clue above)
3> Director won’t promote someone he can’t intimidate (same clue)
4> Age discrimination.

To add further proof to my assessment of his management style, I came in late last week to two supervisors standing near my desk. One of them was telling the other that he didn’t want to talk to the Director about an issue because “He’ll just scream and yell at me about something I can’t change”. The supervisor was visibly upset and clearly afraid, and this was not a person I would consider weak willed. They walked away when I got to my desk and continued their conversation a bit further away where I couldn’t hear.

5

If you were in the U.S., I’d suggest you contact the E.E.O.C.. For some reason, I think you may be in the UK? Maybe you have a similar agency over there?

6

I assume you work for some sort of low-level IT company? IOW you aren’t working at a place like Accenture or IBM that is highly professional. It’s sort of implied since those sort of places don’t really tolerate directors screaming at people. Also the fact that you have 20 year olds and “supervisors” instead of “account managers” or “managing associates” or something of that nature, not to mention their behavior in general, implies that many of your coworkers don’t have college degrees and that the work is of a technical, almost blue collar nature.

This is important since it frames the context with which you would approach management. Which really is just a polite way of saying you probably work for a bunch of people who probably aren’t that smart or professional.
On the surface it sounds like age discrimination, but lets step back and take a different look at the problem. I would imaging that this company probably grinds through 20-25 year olds pretty rapidly? I mean if there is like one 30 year old director, it doesn’t sound like anyone stays there very long. So discounting age, you are basically just one more low-level drone to grind through.

But why SHOULD you be promoted to supervisor? With all your age and experience, are you someone who demonstrates leadership? Do the younger staff look up to you? Your entire tone sounds hostile and confrontational. The only thing we know about you is you want a promotion/lateral move, but you don’t give any reason why you should receive one. And you make threats when you don’t get your way. Companies are under no obligation to promote or transfer you just because you want one. And keep in mind supervisiory jobs are about more than just technical aptitude.

My suggestion is have your conversation with the Ops Manager as you planned. Explain to him how you are interested in a different position with the company and tell him you would like to put together a plan to get there within a reasonable timeframe. If management cannot articulate what you need to do to get to that next level, then you should probably start looking for another job.

And from what you described of your work environment, I’d look for another job anyway.

7

All I am asking for is to be told the truth about why I will not be considered. That’s a bottom line respect for your people and a minimum standard of professionalism in the job of interviewing and hiring people. If they don’t know why they are not being given the job, they are unable to address those reasons and make changes to their own behavior, if that is what is needed.

If you consider this “hostile and confrontational” and “threats”, then you have other issues that should probably be taken to the pit.

I have high standards of professionalism and integrity for people in management. In my interview, I covered some things that I have done when I have been in a supervisory role, discussing how I addressed people with “bad attitudes” (by taking responsibility and fixing them) and worked to develop my people. In answering a question about what I have learned from bad managers, I glossed over that really quickly and went over what I have learned from good managers in my past. While I never said any thing about their management, I do believe in “planting the seeds” in people with thoughts and ideas that may improve them without directly saying “you suck and you need to do X instead”.

Unfortunately, our Director seems fixated on “bad attitude”. We have had a flood of awesome people with mad technical and people skills come through the door, be labeled as “bad attitude” for specious reasons and leave for other jobs. I am absolutely amazed that our Director so casually throws away incredible amounts of skill and experience that walk in his door, in favor of kids with no experience who display what he considers the right attitude. In any other company I’ve ever worked for, this Director would be quickly shown the door for his own bad attitude.

8

I think you’re missing the forest for the trees here - it doesn’t matter why they won’t promote you and why they won’t tell you why - the end result is the same. You have no future at this company except more of the same.

For the record, I think all of msmith’s post was spot on - you might not actually be hostile and confrontational at work, but it kind of sounds like it from this and other threads.

9

See, now this part of your post is very hostile and confrontational. A person provided some excellent advice and as an aside mentioned that you may have a problem with tone, and rather than thanking him for his input and considering what he said, you jumped on the one throw away comment and invited him to take it to the pit. Really? You have NO idea why you’re being passed over for promotion?

Regardless of your technical skills or experience, if your superiors think you’re a dick, they’re not going to promote you.

10

They can’t tell you the truth because it’s too embarrassing, and possibly illegal. That is, if it’s age discrimination. The embarrassing part is the part about the Director being afraid of you, or afraid of not being able to frighten and intimidate you.

If any of these things are true, they will never tell you directly.

11

That is not necessarily true. Sometimes dicks are promoted intentionally, if they’re looking for someone to run a group through fear and intimidation. And it’s not all that rare, because lots of people confuse that environment with the one of “maintaining discipline”.

12

I’ve worked a lot in recruitment over the years - even if they tell you a reason why you weren’t selected it is unlikely to be the truth. We can’t put the truth into writing or discuss it … but we all know the truth of why some people are not chosen for some roles (personality clashes, lack of presentation skills, lack of professionalism, bad body odour, religion, age, skin colour, sex … etc etc etc!).

You will never get the truth … time to move on!

13

I agree with msmith537’s analysis of the situation, and don’t have much more to add.

You might not be intimidated by the director but it’s clear you don’t like working under such a person, and I don’t blame you - I’ve been there.

But you’ve made 9 applications and haven’t ever received a positive reply so I’m going to state the obvious. You need to move. I know that you already know this on some level, because you put it in the OP, but you really should be looking to make a move to a different company. 49 is the new 39.

14

Let us all note that the OP reacted to the (on target, IMO) suggestion that he was hostile and confrontational with hostility and, er, confrontationality.
mmm

15

Probably it’s this, and there may be nothing you can do about that. If they aren’t giving you specific actions to take to move toward promotion, chances are it’s personal.

Bolding mine. If you’re serious about moving forward, your best bet is to let go of the idea that you have any understanding of what constitutes a good/bad attitude. I’m not sure why they would promote someone who completely disagrees with management about something as simple as this, because doing so would almost guarantee a lot of drama and hassle.

If you want to move up, or even just get your boss off your back, start displaying what he considers a good attitude and stop doing the things that lead him to label you as someone with a bad attitude.

Some people seem to think that it’s ok to be a pain in the ass if they’re “right” and management is wrong. It’s a hard lesson to learn that getting along with people is the most important management skill, certainly more so than anything skills based.

16

The only thing I can add to the spectacular advice being handed out in this thread is:

Unless you just really dig asking folks if they want fries with that, jobs aren’t all that easy to come by these days in this stinko economy for older folks. (And don’t ask me how I know, sonny.) Be grateful you have a job at all and do the best you can at it.

17

Warning: Wild Ass Guess.

Why does it never occur to anyone in this, or a similar position, that they have character flaws? Y’know, like other human beings.

If you can’t identify any character flaws in yourself, well, I can’t help thinking, you may have stumbled upon the answer! If you can, with self awareness, identify, like the rest of us flawed creatures, flaws in your nature that others may find annoying or off putting, then why wouldn’t you assume that is where the problem lies? Yet no one ever does. Very strange indeed.

Ageism? Really? Over the, better than likely, chance that you have some annoying trait that makes you a less than ideal fit with the management team in this particular company?

Whatever it is, it isn’t going to suddenly go away, in my opinion. Either decide to stay and accept you may never be promoted. Or start looking for something else, where maybe you will be a better fit.

Either way, I wish you good luck.

18

Chimera, I added “work situation” to the thread title.

— Ellen

19

I don’t want to jump on the *let’s beat **Chimera ***bandwagon here, which IMO has gotten a bit out of hand, but I do want to talk about just this.

It is factually incorrect that truth in management is a minimum standard for professionalism in HR. In fact it’s all but unheard of. In an ideal world things *would *work as you say. But the US workplace in late 2011 is very, very far from an ideal world.

Clearly your ideas of professionalism are not shared by the company, or at least not by the several managers immediately above you who control your destiny there.
So … Either they need to change, you need to change, or the situation needs to change.

I see zero chance of the first.

Even if you sucessfully change 100% to behave exactly how they’d want a promoted person to behave from today forward, your history won’t disappear. So even you changing doesn’t achieve your goal on any timeline you’d be willing to put up with.

That leaves the situation changing. IOW, go get another job before they force you to go get another job. Easier said than done I know. But when you have 3 alternatives, two of which are impossible & one of which is merely very difficult, well … your best course of action becomes real obvious.

Good luck. Seriously, not snarkily. You’ve fallen / driven into a bad situation. Blame is irrelevant; what you need is action to drive / climb out to a better situation.

You will have the satisfaction that in the long run, most asshole department heads end up screwed. A few percent end up rich, but most fail in due time. Your goal is to be so far long gone that you never even hear of this jerk’s fate.

20

Attempt #9 (My computer is throwing out memory errors and crashing like crazy)

  1. Ok, looking in the mirror I can see where I am coming off as hostile and confrontational.
  2. I know there is no hope there, I’m not that stupid.

As for the attitude thing, as I told my ops manager (who isn’t responsible for any of this, he’s too new at it and is still working on gaining the power to do his own job);

As the number of people being slandered as having a bad attitude increases, the likelyhood that it is actually all of those people decreases and the odds it is the person on the other side of the desk increases.