How do illiterate people survive in modern society?

[gracer]

@DrDeth

How did they get that way? They skate thru HS, maybe since they are good at sports or something. I knew a dude that after he left HS, had never read a book.

The article I mentioned upthread (I googled for it, couldn’t find it, it was about 2-3 yrs ago in the NRC, a newspaper) said that there are people who learn a bit when they are young, aren’t very good at it, for that reason never use it and then more or less forget.

I can sort of imagine. Let’s say you did learn just the basics, but you’re dyslexic and the letters jumble for you so you don’t really like reading. You hate school, so you skive off most of secondary school. Your spouse helps you with forms, your work doesn’t need much in the way of reading and writing. And over time, your ability just fades away. Like when people forget to play the piano. You can still play some notes, maybe a little bit of Mary had a little lamb, but you’d be functionally illiterate.

[foolsguinea]

@bump

How does that work? I’d imagine that if you understood the concept that letters = sounds, and you could read a little, all it would take is a little practice, and you’d be reasonably literate. Maybe not fast, and maybe you’d have to look a lot of words up, but literate nonetheless.

I’m just having a really hard time understanding this- reading is one of those things to me that’s like breathing; there’s no conscious thought involved- I just see words and know what they mean, and to a great extent, read entire sentences at once.

Coming from that perspective, it’s hard to conceive of someone who literally can’t read and who doesn’t have some sort of perceptual problem or learning disability.

Huh.

I learned to read at a very young age, and I am so at ease in reading English that when I tried teaching someone else to read, I found that difficult. But I am keenly aware that the alphabet is a code, and it can be hard for someone in the same way that sheet music or a foreign language is for me.

Do you sight-read music and hear the notes in your head? Because as literate as I am, I don’t. Have you ever studied a language you didn’t learn before the age of six? Just because you learn the grammar doesn’t mean you’re fluent.

And of course written English is its own language, not a straight representation of an English speaker’s spoken dialect. I may have learned to read so young I don’t remember it, but I do remember having to sort out phonics on my own.

[EmilyG]

@Senegoid

Can’t resist wondering if OP was inspired by this thread, about the New Jersey neo-Nazi who showed up in court to argue for child custody, all decked out in his full dress splendiferous Nazi military regalia – and who, it was noted in linked articles, is illiterate.

It was also noted in said linked articles, that he’s a life-long unemployed. So much for earning a living.

In Post #3 of that thread, nearwildheaven states that the family got along by defrauding SSI. So they managed to muddle along after all.

It was inspired by that thread, actually. (Not that I mean to imply that all illiterate people are idiots/jerks like that neo-Nazi - many of those mentioned in this thread seem to be pretty decent people.)

[suranyi]

@bump

How does that work? I’d imagine that if you understood the concept that letters = sounds, and you could read a little, all it would take is a little practice, and you’d be reasonably literate. Maybe not fast, and maybe you’d have to look a lot of words up, but literate nonetheless.

I’m just having a really hard time understanding this- reading is one of those things to me that’s like breathing; there’s no conscious thought involved- I just see words and know what they mean, and to a great extent, read entire sentences at once.

Coming from that perspective, it’s hard to conceive of someone who literally can’t read and who doesn’t have some sort of perceptual problem or learning disability.

I’m reminded of something I read recently: “Many people don’t understand how hard it is to teach, because they don’t remember how they themselves learned something new. They think they were practically born knowing how to read, for example.”

As the other poster said, imagine trying to learn how to read Chinese now. That’s how hard it was to learn to read English, only you don’t remember anymore because it happened when you were very young.

[EmilyG]

@suranyi

I’m reminded of something I read recently: “Many people don’t understand how hard it is to teach, because they don’t remember how they themselves learned something new. They think they were practically born knowing how to read, for example.”

…

There’s a term for that: “the curse of knowledge.” (link to my own thread on the subject - hope this doesn’t count as vanity. )

[papergirl]

My ex-boyfriend could probably be considered barely functionally literate…maybe 4th grade reading level. He works at jobs doing manual labor and is an extremely reliable worker as long as he doesn’t have to read an instruction book. He’s a skinflint who puts all of his money into CDs and to tell the truth, aside from a few very rich clients I know, he has more money in the bank than anyone I know personally…not because he knows what he’s doing but because he knows what he doesn’t know so doesn’t take any risks whatsoever. He gets help from his family if he has to fill out forms or applications.
The problem now is that his crazy temper caused him to get fired, and he has had to find work …you can get by with being illiterate for a long time as long as you don’t have to fill out applications, but it becomes difficult when you go on a job search. Nevertheless, he could live for 20 years off his savings so I suppose there’s no huge rush.

[WhyNot]

@bump

The thing I don’t understand is, barring being illiterate in a second language, how do you get to be illiterate in the first place?

Just to blow your mind a little bit…there are some people who were once literate who are no longer literate.

It never occurred to me to ask the retired English teacher if he could read. His house was covered in books and magazines. Newspapers littered the end tables. Pamphlets for all sorts of things had to be moved whenever I wanted to sit down. I worked with him for 6 months before I figured out his secret.

A stroke 10 years ago removed his ability to read. He can *remember *reading. He knows the *concept *of reading. He once TAUGHT reading, for goodness’ sakes. But that part of his brain is irreparably damaged. No amount of trying to relearn how to read will bring his books back to him. He keeps all those things around to hide his secret, and also out of a sort of hope that one morning he’ll wake up and they will make sense again.

First time I went home and cried for a patient, that was.

[foolsguinea]

Oh, wow. I think I can almost imagine what that’s like, by analogy to trying to read in a dream.

[sugaree]

@DrDeth

Very very few are actually “illiterate’, they are most often “functionally illiterate” which means they can read signs, maybe a comic book, the Tv guide, etc.

They’d never “read the book” just “watch the movie/show”.

How did they get that way? They skate thru HS, maybe since they are good at sports or something. I knew a dude that after he left HS, had never read a book.

This. If you ask a functionally illiterate person to read out loud, he could, but he would have to put so much effort into decoding the words, he would have no energy left over to comprehend them. The act of reading is such a laborious chore that at the end of a paragraph, he would not be able to remember the beginning words. At this level, the person could function somewhat–be able to read street signs or parse out whether a package of ground meat is turkey or pork.

As far as survival techniques, well, I knew one woman who used her good nature as a tool. She was very friendly and empathetic and easy-going and laid-back, and while I’m sure those were all components of her natural personality, I think she skated by on her likeability and thoughtfulness. Although I know nothing of her schooling, I can very much picture teachers cutting her some slack and passing her, because she was a sweet, earnest child who never gave them a moment’s trouble. She dropped out at sixteen. At the time that I knew her, she was supported by her boyfriend, and prior to that she had been on assistance and done some under the table babysitting and housecleaning.

A more common coping mechanism is out and out rebellion, masking shame and frustration with aggression. Rather than admit how discouraged and hopeless they feel, children and teens act out, talk back to teachers, skip school, and flat-out refuse to participate. Thus, their lack of ability is masked by their behavior issues. This anti-social conduct carries on outside of school–many career criminals are illiterate.

A kid’s best chance is having a good strong support structure–parents or guardians who realize what’s going on, care what’s going on, and are proactive in addressing problems. Now those kids who slip through the cracks, as adults, they feel shame. They feel stupid. They may not know how to seek help; they may not think that help is possible; they may be so damn embarrassed that living, in effect, on the outskirts of society is preferable to the humiliation of admitting their illiteracy.

[HoneyBadgerDC]

I have known several men who could not read but were excellent carpenters, or mechanics. They had trouble when they needed to hit the books.

[listedmia]

One of my bosses is mostly illiterate. He stopped going to school around age 14 (This wasn’t too uncommon for a black man in the rural deep South apparently) and got a job in our restaurant as soon as it opened. Now he has been there for 30 years and is one of two head chefs. He memorized the words that commonly appear on the tickets a long time ago, because our menu rarely changes. He has some trouble when the waiters put in special orders, and asks someone else what it says because “the print is too small”. When he does inventory, he memorizes what all we need and then orders it without referring to a list. He is an intelligent guy with a good memory.

[Sparky812]

I know a couple people who are functionally illiterate.
I’ve noticed that they are extremely good at getting someone else to do or explain things to them. This also may be how they skated through school without having to learn to read.

[even_sven]

I spent a couple of years essentially illiterate in China, and it’s amazing how well you can adapt.

Ordering food, for example, is not as hard as you’d think. Often you can just order based on the kind of restaurant- a diner is always going to have a hamburger, a Mexican restaurant will always have tacos, etc. You can also ask the waiter things like “Do you have a chicken dish you recommend?” All else failing, you can always just order what the person before you ordered.

With things like directions or instructions, you can often just ask someone. There are plenty of auditory learners anyway, so nobody really bats an eye. I spent a lot of time asking things like “Excuse me, is this the bus to Chengdu?” or asking the doctor “Can you explain to me exactly when to take this medicine?”

Forms are harder, but having friends and family helps out a lot.

[md2000]

I went to a private high school, where theoretically everyone was smarter than the average bear. One time our grade 10 teacher made us read a section in the history book out loud, the same as if we were back in grade 4 - the first guy reads a paragraph, then next guy reads the next one, etc. We stopped not long after Bart (that really was his name!) tried to read his paragraph and took about 2 to 5 seconds per word, including corrections; it was apparent he could not read properly… a relatively middle class student in Grade 10! This was, of course, before targetted lessons for each student, and I don’t recall if he got any help, or was dropped from the school next year.

Anyway, you kind of wonder how kids in the poor area of town learn, when all they have at home is a few Golden Books and maybe the Saturday paper.

Bruno Bettelheim wrote an article for Psychology Today(?) about 1983, IIRC. “Why Johnny Can’t Read”. He compared early grade readers from Austria, USSR, and USA. The difference was the American one was half pictures or more, while the european ones were mostly text. he said “see, johnny does not need to learn to read. He can look at the pictures; Spot is running. He sees Spot run.” The european readers, by contrast, made you work. The story had to be read, not viewed.

The other criticism was content. Who cares if Dick and jane go to the park, or Spot runs? In the Austrian reader, there’s a story about being in school. Dmitri in the USSR visits his mother in the tractor factory. (OK, propaganda). By contrast, all Dick does is run.

Bruno goes deeper into it. The one time Dick and Jane are in shown in school, they are in the same class. What, is Dick retarded and flunked, or Jane his sister a genius who moved up a grade? or are they twins? Either would be something special to kids, and certainly would be something that should be mentioned. The stories are so irrelevant, the kids conclude that the people writing them are stupid, and by extension reading itself, is a waste of time imposed on them by stupid people.

[bump]

@TriPolar

How well do you read Chinese? It’s even simpler, pictures for words. Why haven’t you picked it up yet?

I specifically excluded second languages in my first post. And you are one hostile guy, by the way.

My point was that English is less than trivial for me to read, and it’s very hard to understand how people don’t spontaneously pick it up, assuming they know the alphabet and what sounds the letters make, which are all things that are explicitly taught in kindergarten/1st grade.

Plenty of kids pick up how to read at very young ages without even knowing the alphabet- it’s hard to believe that grown people without learning disabilities and/or retardation can’t pick it up relatively easily in their native language.

[TriPolar]

@bump

I specifically excluded second languages in my first post. And you are one hostile guy, by the way.

My point was that English is less than trivial for me to read, and it’s very hard to understand how people don’t spontaneously pick it up, assuming they know the alphabet and what sounds the letters make, which are all things that are explicitly taught in kindergarten/1st grade.

Plenty of kids pick up how to read at very young ages without even knowing the alphabet- it’s hard to believe that grown people without learning disabilities and/or retardation can’t pick it up relatively easily in their native language.

I would say I am merely hostile-ish.

This relates to another thread, just because you picked up reading easily (and I did also) doesn’t mean everyone can do it. You also learned to read at a young age, it’s much more difficult to as you get older. Far more people do not pick up how to read from knowing what sounds letters make than those who do. If it was that easy to do then most of mankind would not have been illiterate until recent times.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@listedmia

One of my bosses is mostly illiterate. He stopped going to school around age 14 (This wasn’t too uncommon for a black man in the rural deep South apparently) and got a job in our restaurant as soon as it opened. Now he has been there for 30 years and is one of two head chefs.

The speaker at a graduation ceremony I went to last month was a prominent black attorney from a sharecropper family. He was born in the fifties as one of 12 children and he was the only one who attended school beyond the seventh grade.

[bump]

@TriPolar

I would say I am merely hostile-ish.

This relates to another thread, just because you picked up reading easily (and I did also) doesn’t mean everyone can do it. You also learned to read at a young age, it’s much more difficult to as you get older. Far more people do not pick up how to read from knowing what sounds letters make than those who do. If it was that easy to do then most of mankind would not have been illiterate until recent times.

I may be coming at this from a weird position; Not to brag, but I’m one of those really odd outliers- as in I typically have scored in the 99th percentile on all standardized tests I have ever taken, with one or two 98th percentile scores in there. Reading’s literally effortless; the main thing I have to worry about is going too fast and not remembering all the details of what I just read.

From that perspective, illiteracy seems like something astounding to me- like you clearly have to be damaged in some fashion to not be able to read, because it’s so easy to do. Even being in foreign cities, it’s typically not hard to get a handle on things, because stuff starts to show patterns after a little while- I start to realize that a certain word means “drink” or “payment” or whatever.

[TriPolar]

@bump

I may be coming at this from a weird position; Not to brag, but I’m one of those really odd outliers- as in I typically have scored in the 99th percentile on all standardized tests I have ever taken, with one or two 98th percentile scores in there. Reading’s literally effortless; the main thing I have to worry about is going too fast and not remembering all the details of what I just read.

From that perspective, illiteracy seems like something astounding to me- like you clearly have to be damaged in some fashion to not be able to read, because it’s so easy to do. Even being in foreign cities, it’s typically not hard to get a handle on things, because stuff starts to show patterns after a little while- I start to realize that a certain word means “drink” or “payment” or whatever.

I have that same kind of eerie test taking ability. I can’t really say how it works, except I suspect that I’m naturally highly motivated in a test situation, or perhaps lack the test phobia many people have. However that has never helped me understand music. I can read music (or used to, it’s been a long time) and I learned the mechanics of playing several instruments, but I can’t keep a beat or distinquish pitch very well, and have never been able to produce anything that could honestly be called music. And I assume that reading for many people is the same way, probably not quite that bad for most people, but something that would take concentrated effort to learn, and not something picked up naturally. I may not know exactly why any particular person has difficulty reading, but I can understand the problem in general simply by thinking about my inability to learn many other things. We are all different, and we have different abilities.

[Nava]

@DrDeth

How did they get that way? They skate thru HS, maybe since they are good at sports or something. I knew a dude that after he left HS, had never read a book.

The illiterate people I’ve met (illiterate in their first language, not in a second one) never got to HS. Many of the oldest ones left school at 10 (4th grade) or never had access to schooling; those my age (I’m a 1968 vintage) left school at 14 without getting their 8th-grade diploma, just a certificate of “compulsory school attendance”.