My SCA-style group in Miami included several former street children. Well, former children: some had managed to get themselves out of the streets, get their GEDs, get IDs, get jobs. There was one, though, who’d fled “home” at age 9, wasn’t even sure of his exact birthday until he finally dared get his SS card and his first ID in his mid-20s… when I first met him, he worked as a day laborer, coach-surfed and felt terribly guilty to be “bumming” from friends who would merrily have whooped his parents into the next galaxy if they had dared show up. Part of the reason he took so long to get any kind of paperwork was his terror of being sent back; the trigger for getting it was that he’d obtained a certificate allowing him to work as a movie specialist - a certificate which he asked us to read for him so he could memorize it. He showed it to the group the way other people show their firstborn’s baby picture.
Was he the smartest guy I’ve ever known? No. But if he’d been born into a normal family rather than the pits of Hell, he would have had a normal schooling and would have been able to read more than his name, which he didn’t recognize if you used fancy lettering. That certificate made him feel worthy and important and grown-up and able for the first time in his life.
I can’t think of anything that I have real trouble learning; I do learn some things easier than others, but I can’t really think of anything that I actually put effort into learning that I didn’t eventually become at least adequate at. Maybe that’s the thing; I suppose that it’s possible that the illiterate and not somehow disabled just were never interested in putting in the effort to be adequately literate, which seems like a staggeringly, mind-blowingly poor decision to me.
One of the hallmarks of a good general intelligence is the ability to reason about things outside your experience; to understand other’s experiences and situations for instance. So you might want to downgrade your self assessment.
Every one of us have been illiterate; it just was when we were so young, we don’t remember.
I have a vivid memory of being illiterate. More than 50 years ago, but I remember it quite clearly. In a restaurant, I needed to go to the bathroom. I was old enough to know what to do, but I couldn’t read. I had learned, however that “MEN” was shorter than “WOMEN”, and that “BOYS” was shorter than “GIRLS”, so I told the adults-in-charge that I could find the right one. They were happy not to have to escort me (and I remember being self-confident). All my plans were thwarted by the fact the doors were labeled “LADIES” and “GENTLEMEN”. I was maybe 4 years old, but I remember looking at the two, thinking they didn’t look right, but “LADIES” was shorter, so that was the door I chose. My mother had to come in and get me, it seemed that some of the occupants thought something was odd, with a little boy in the Ladies room.
But, I almost pulled it off. I never made the mistake again, although I did learn to read shortly thereafter (I remember focusing on “MEN” when in doubt, realizing that if both had “MEN” in them, the shorter one was correct). My point is that illiterate does not mean stupid, and even a stupid 4 year old can get it right, sometimes, without even knowing what is going on.
I am dyslexic. I see letters upside down, backwards and they sometimes move on me [sneaky little buggers!] I trained myself to self-correct, I sent a lot of time ill and in bed with pneumonia when I was 3-12 years old. There were always a lot of books around the house, and Marie or Mom would happily read to me when they had time- and when they weren’t available for one reason or another I would look through the books [my favorites were the Uncle Wiggly and original Raggedy Ann and Andy books that had originally belonged to my father and uncles when they were my age.] At some point I learned to read, and it ws noticed that I held the books upside down to read them. I was corrected and told to hold the book the other way, so I taught myself to hold the books the way everybody else holds them and flip the words in my head. [And I lose the ability to flip the words if I am dead tired or migraining and revert to reading upside down if I absolutely have to read something. It makes migraines my own special hell sometimes.]
I am an avid reader, I read every chance I can, I would read in my sleep if I could keep my eyes open I can’t imagine not being able to read now, it has been my companion and comfort all my remembered life.
Hey- it’s just that I don’t have a good frame of reference- reading is like the one thing I’m spectacularly good at, and have always been.
I’m trying to reason it out- consider some of this “thinking out loud.” Right now, it would seem to me that the crux of the issue is having the phonics part click- everything else would be a matter of practice after that point. This is assuming there aren’t any disabilities or structural problems that might prevent you from being able to read- no severe vision issues, dyslexia, retardation, etc…
I’m not saying that the illiterate are stupid, just that I don’t see how people can have a concept of how reading might work, and be more interested in being illiterate than learning how to read, which is exactly what people describe in this thread.
It’s mind-boggling. Think about if you substituted “toilet trained” for “able to read”- it’s on the same level of astounding.
But they don’t have the concept. Not in the sense that you do. They have an explanation.
I’ll give you an example of a concept I am missing as exemplar. I’m 40 and I have never figured it out. You can humour me by helping me grok it. You can see by my writing that I am not particularly stupid.
You know when you are enjoying a particularly nice day? Perhaps the sun is setting and it is beautiful. I understand that. I appreciate those experiences.
But you think to yourself: “I sure wish someone were here to enjoy it with me.” You aren’t really sad, it would just be better if it were shared.
I have no idea why or how it is better because it is shared.
To me it is exactly the same, unless they are being annoying. Of course.
You can see that I’ve come to understand that there is an experience to be had, that most people seek it out, and that it somehow enhances their days. I have an anthropologist’s understanding of it. I’m not an anthropologist.
Now if you will, write a nice reply that makes me feel what I am missing. Bonus: make me care that I am missing out. I cannot crave something I’ve never tasted after all.
If you don’t care to respond, that is fine too. I’ve had decades of explanations. I’m curious if lending you my shoes shortens the distance to the perspective of an intelligent but illiterate adult.
I’d like to hear from bump before anyone else; he has the conch shell, ok?
You experience it, and they experience it.
But part of your experience of the sunset, or whatever, is their enjoyment.
You are enjoying the day, and enjoying their enjoyment of it. And enjoying them enjoying your enjoyment.
It compounds on itself.
But the key is that it has to be somebody you enjoy seeing enjoy things.
Spending a sunset with someone for whom you have no empathy is not enjoyable.
Sharing something with someone doesn’t make the objective experience of the sunset/meal/good bottle of wine better per se- that sunset doesn’t get prettier, that meal or wine doesn’t taste better. That’s not what’s happening when someone says that it would be better if shared with another person.
When something’s better when shared, it’s because sharing it with someone introduces another experience that when added to the pre-existing one, amplifies it, and/or adds to the sum total of pleasurable experience for the event.
Generally speaking, when people think/say that this would be better shared, it’s because you care about someone you want to share it with. Clearly most moments wouldn’t be better being shared with someone you don’t like.
So assuming you do care about the person you want to share it with, the idea is two-fold. First, you want to share whatever pleasurable event/sensation with the other person, because you think they’ll enjoy it as well, and making them happy makes you happy. Second, sharing experiences in general draws people closer to each other, and most people prefer good experiences to bad ones, so sharing good experiences with someone you care about will bring you closer to each other, which is usually something people strive for.
How’s that? It’s a pretty generic explanation.
A more concrete example would be me having some ice cream by myself, and thinking it would be more fun if my son was handy to share it with me. He’s not quite two years old, and it’s just the best thing to see him enjoy things like ice cream- it’s like adult enjoyment turned to eleven. I like seeing him happy, and the process of sharing the ice cream brings us both closer, which makes the total experience of eating the ice cream better.
The ice cream itself doesn’t taste any better than if I had I eaten it by myself though.
One thing that I think really helped me to learn to read quickly was that my Mom very insistent that only standard English be spoken in our home. Slang was frowned on, and “baby talk” was expressly forbidden.
It makes it a lot harder to learn to read when you have to remember that “spoze” needs to be spelled suppose and that “worsh” is spelled wash.* Not quite as bad a learning a new language, but heading in that direction. If your culture has a strong dialect (thinking ebonics here) then it is more troublesome. For some kids, reading standard american English might as well be Shakespeare.
I think this is one of the best arguments for trying to lock down and standardize language, rather than the “living language” approach. At some point we need to be able to communicate with each other, both across space and time. The faster language changes, the harder that becomes.
*that one my Mom actually was guilty of. Some things you just can’t unlearn!
I just wanted to say that I knew someone with a PhD who couldn’t read. It happened he sat next to me at a concert series for a couple years and had me read him the program notes.
Of course, I assume he could read Braille. But Braille doesn’t help with street signs and most traffic lights. My point is that there are coping mechanisms if you are willing to use them. For example, he asked me to read the program notes.
I agree. I knew a PhD who didn’t speak English well but was very good with Chinese (Mandarin I assume, didn’t ask) and Japanese and I think one other language. It didn’t matter - he was literate in a fundamental educational development sense even if he was in the US. If being “literate” required being able to read the local language, people would become illiterate everyday by crossing borders. Also, what about jurisdictions with multiple official languages? Is a person who can speak, read, and write fluent French and German but knows very little Italian considered illiterate in Switzerland because Italian is also an official language?
There was an article in National Geographic that spoke about a rural Gaelic speaking area of the British Isles where the English taught was out of the King James Version of the Bible because that’s pretty much what they had and pretty much all they thought they needed.
Wow. I’ve heard of people who lack empathy to this degree before, but rarely someone admit it. Equating reading with toilet training? Seriously?
I suppose that if two pages of stories aren’t going to provide any insight, then one more post won’t help either, but your framing of the situation is flawed.
People who are not literate do not wake up every morning and decide that today they are going to wear the blue shirt today, have eggs for breakfast, and by the way, will remain illiterate for another 24 hours, actively resisting otherwise inevitable state of literacy.
For whatever reason, some people did not learn how to read as a child. Once an adult, it becomes much harder to learn to read. People are busier or there aren’t that many beginning classes for adults. Whatever.
For many people, there isn’t a sufficient motivation for learning which would overcome what is for them a difficult task. They get by in life. Sure, it’s inconvenient, but not so much to motive them to to spending hours a day studying for something with a payoff which isn’t immediately recognizable.
This is a universal human trait. We should all be doing something better than we are. Eating healthier. Losing weight. Studying harder. Saving more. I’ve yet to meet someone who is living a perfect life.
This reminds me of coaching. The differences in motivation and the inherent differences in abilities are reasons why great athletes usually don’t make great coaches. Star athletes are usually born and highly motivated to perform well. Great coaches are often those who have had to struggle to learn themselves and excel at helping others find motivation.
I’ve always found learning language difficult, I learnt French for 7 years and visited with my family around 10 times but I still couldn’t hold a conversation that amounted to anything further than introductions and asking for directions. I ‘learnt’ Latin for two years but couldn’t even tell you the basics.
Now I’m a language teacher, teaching English to speakers of other languages. Believe me, English is a fantastically difficult language to learn unless you grow up in an English-speaking environment, with a lot of support in your school. That some people didn’t have those advantages and cannot write is not a surprise to me, but I’ve met many people overseas who find it incomprehensible that I can’t speak their language after ‘listening a bit’. Also learning a language before and after the age of 7/8 is very different and involves hugely contrasting skills, often which are completely alien to anyone who hasn’t tried to learn a second language.
And there are different learners; visual (around 60%), aural (25%) and kinesthetic (approx 15%) and many more types of teachers - they are aural, in the majority, which is why they like the sound of their own voices so much. It’s not an exact science but, occasionally, you’ll find a good mix and, if that’s the case, you may think you’re a genius. Good luck with that.
I teach English as a second language now as well. I lived in Japan long enough to become fairly fluent, but haven’t learned any Chinese since moving here to Taiwan several months ago. There are a couple of differences. Although they say that Chinese grammar is easier than Japanese, it has a really steep learning curve for the sounds and tones.
Another factor is motivation and the supporting environment. I was highly motivated to learn Japanese as I was a Mormon missionary, with its decent language system and more importantly, was surrounded by Japanese which encouraged learning rapidly, nope of which come in play here.
My highly intelligent younger brother has some sort of learning disability, and didn’t learn to read back in the early elementary grades. Once you get past third grade, there really wasn’t a system in most schools for teaching the basics. Fortunately, there was a special program which my mother went after school for almost a year to help him get caught up. He never really learned to spell really well, but at least he can use spell checking now.
I can’t imagine not being able to read now, it has been my companion and comfort all my remembered life.